Renationalising The Trains

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Labour are suggesting they might do it?

If its cost effective let's have it !

And make energy , broadband , phones all in one

[pipster]

Re: Renationalising The Trains

Labour are suggesting they might do it?

If its cost effective let's have it !

And make energy , broadband , phones all in one

That's all fine and dandy Sludgey but... picture the scene - Sir Keir and Angie have just completed the total re nationalisation - we are back to British Rail. Responsible for all trains, track, repairs, drivers, conductors etc - fantastic. Until British Rail union members decide to go on strike for more (insert ludicrous demand here).

All of a sudden with great ease - they could bring down the entire rail network. Every person now employed by the Govt. East coast service is cr@p - we'll get companies to re tender and dont renew the current supplier - under British Rail - you are stuck with them.

Inefficiency, no motivation to innovate, probable political interference, zero accountability, zero competition, if you want that good luck to you. Much better off using the Japan Rail model - rather than the usual socialist guff policy that never worked and will fail again. But hey ho - I'm sure you have thought this through - and it will all be fine - just like it was in the 70's

[jon1959]

Re: Renationalising The Trains

That's all fine and dandy Sludgey but... picture the scene - Sir Keir and Angie have just completed the total re nationalisation - we are back to British Rail. Responsible for all trains, track, repairs, drivers, conductors etc - fantastic. Until British Rail union members decide to go on strike for more (insert ludicrous demand here).

All of a sudden with great ease - they could bring down the entire rail network. Every person now employed by the Govt. East coast service is cr@p - we'll get companies to re tender and dont renew the current supplier - under British Rail - you are stuck with them.

Inefficiency, no motivation to innovate, probable political interference, zero accountability, zero competition, if you want that good luck to you. Much better off using the Japan Rail model - rather than the usual socialist guff policy that never worked and will fail again. But hey ho - I'm sure you have thought this through - and it will all be fine - just like it was in the 70's

Labour (Louise Haigh) nationalisation plans specifically exclude rolling stock and (I think) the track. It is just about bringing the operations of the train operating companies back into public control as and when the contracts expire.

Not sure of the rationale for this half and half plan - though assume it is so they can say it will not cost a penny (and will make big savings for the Treasury). The figure they are using is £2.2 billion per year after 5 years. With that they should be able to buy back the trains and track too - and have an integrated transport system.

It will make a change from the government temporarily nationalising routes when train franchises fail and then giving them away again when they have recovered. Or in other words a change from nationalising debt and privatising profit. Or in other words a change from tax payers subsidising shareholders. Or in other words parasite capitalism.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Renationalising The Trains

Inefficiency, no motivation to innovate, probable political interference, zero accountability, zero competition, if you want that good luck to you.

All of those points apply to the current model.

At this point it is probably worth asking, do you think any functions of central/local government should remain 'nationalised' or would they all operate better if privatised?

[pipster]

Re: Renationalising The Trains

All of those points apply to the current model.

At this point it is probably worth asking, do you think any functions of central/local government should remain 'nationalised' or would they all operate better if privatised?

Great point - If they are one and the same then - I would prefer the option that gives the end client the option to get rid of the bad supplier. That way you are not stuck with a rubbish supplier. The nationalised British rail model does not allow for that option - which is why it is flawed.

for the avoidance of doubt - I cant stand some of the train operators currently running some services. But at least they can be got rid of. British Rail militant and unionised would be a disaster - even worse than what we have now.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Renationalising The Trains

That's all fine and dandy Sludgey but... picture the scene - Sir Keir and Angie have just completed the total re nationalisation - we are back to British Rail. Responsible for all trains, track, repairs, drivers, conductors etc - fantastic. Until British Rail union members decide to go on strike for more (insert ludicrous demand here).

All of a sudden with great ease - they could bring down the entire rail network. Every person now employed by the Govt. East coast service is cr@p - we'll get companies to re tender and dont renew the current supplier - under British Rail - you are stuck with them.

Inefficiency, no motivation to innovate, probable political interference, zero accountability, zero competition, if you want that good luck to you. Much better off using the Japan Rail model - rather than the usual socialist guff policy that never worked and will fail again. But hey ho - I'm sure you have thought this through - and it will all be fine - just like it was in the 70's

We are basically stuck with the private train operators functioning as a sort of its this or you can get the bus ......with the train companies coining it in

Plus loads of people making money out of shares and dividends

The train service nationwide can be shut down as it is

I would nationalise everything if it was financially viable

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Renationalising The Trains

We are basically stuck with the private train operators functioning as a sort of its this or you can get the bus ......with the train companies coining it in

Plus loads of people making money out of shares and dividends

The train service nationwide can be shut down as it is

I would nationalise everything if it was financially viable

Tbh your second paragraph is a bit off the mark. A significant amount of the operators are directly owned by foreign governments. The irony isn't lost that Pipster thinks it's somehow more efficient for the French or German government to run rail services in the UK, as opposed to the UK government and that somehow that makes railways adds accountability.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Renationalising The Trains

Thankfully arriva will soon be out of the mitts of DB and in the hands of a US private equity firm. If there is anything you can count on in life, it's that private equity firms owning vital infrastructure always goes well.

[jon1959]

Re: Renationalising The Trains

Reading some articles on Labour's plans this morning I was surprised that the government still owns and operates 4 former franchises that it took over in recent years as they failed (Northern, Trans Pennine, LNER and Southern) and is still running Network Rail as an autonomous organisation inside the Department of Transport, 10 years after it was taken out of private hands (I thought it had been semi privatised again - but seems not). So more than 25% of the former British Rail has already been piecemeal renationalised.

There is over 65% public support for a nationalised and integrated railway.

[JamesWales]

Re: Renationalising The Trains

Yeah my understanding is that the Railways are already effectively nationalised. What isnt is the companies running the services.

I'm broadly supportive of nationalisation, as I am with water (as opposed to say telecommunications or bus travel where privatisation works) but I dont think it's a panacea at all and I dont think TfW is better for being government run really. I also think it's important than any new British Rail does not have a monopoly. If someone with private rai stock thinks they can run a Cardiff to Bristol service better then they should be allowed to compete.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Renationalising The Trains

Yeah my understanding is that the Railways are already effectively nationalised. What isnt is the companies running the services.

I'm broadly supportive of nationalisation, as I am with water (as opposed to say telecommunications or bus travel where privatisation works) but I dont think it's a panacea at all and I dont think TfW is better for being government run really. I also think it's important than any new British Rail does not have a monopoly. If someone with private rai stock thinks they can run a Cardiff to Bristol service better then they should be allowed to compete.

I tend to think of transport as a tool to get people from places where they are economically inactive to places where they will produce things/spend money. Therefore I am not convinced the government should aim for a nationalised transport system to be profit generating or break even. Taxpayer funding transport makes sense to me, because it generates returns outside of that bubble, essentially you spend x here to get back a multiple of that elsewhere.

As with most things quick fixes/gestures won't create a better system. I don't think the Tory position or labour position on this issue shows much creativity or vision if I am honest. It feels like this labour commitment is more about tipping their hat to those people who favour nationalisation rather than part of a wider programme to repurpose/reform how we look at transport.

[JamesWales]

Re: Renationalising The Trains

I tend to think of transport as a tool to get people from places where they are economically inactive to places where they will produce things/spend money. Therefore I am not convinced the government should aim for a nationalised transport system to be profit generating or break even. Taxpayer funding transport makes sense to me, because it generates returns outside of that bubble, essentially you spend x here to get back a multiple of that elsewhere.

As with most things quick fixes/gestures won't create a better system. I don't think the Tory position or labour position on this issue shows much creativity or vision if I am honest. It feels like this labour commitment is more about tipping their hat to those people who favour nationalisation rather than part of a wider programme to repurpose/reform how we look at transport.

I agree. I also don't think the system is entirely broken. Until covid and WFH, the growth in passengers was huge, so some things are right. The range of universal railcards is great too. I make use of the friends and family one and it's really good.

My frustration is the prices and the complexity of fares. Add to that the recent strikes and other engineering problems and it becomes expensive and unreliable. A bad mix.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Renationalising The Trains

I agree. I also don't think the system is entirely broken. Until covid and WFH, the growth in passengers was huge, so some things are right. The range of universal railcards is great too. I make use of the friends and family one and it's really good.

My frustration is the prices and the complexity of fares. Add to that the recent strikes and other engineering problems and it becomes expensive and unreliable. A bad mix.

Some of the pricing is mental still and not because of being private/public. My base at work has recently moved out of walking distance and because of the way singles/returns are managed a single works out at £8.60 for a 12 minute journey.

[pipster]

Re: Renationalising The Trains

Tbh your second paragraph is a bit off the mark. A significant amount of the operators are directly owned by foreign governments. The irony isn't lost that Pipster thinks it's somehow more efficient for the French or German government to run rail services in the UK, as opposed to the UK government and that somehow that makes railways adds accountability.

I thought I said should be modelled on the Japanese way they have done it. Where they have both a standard JapanRail option or you can ride the bullet train run my a company for extra money - that gets you there quicker. The choice is with the customer.

What I certainly dont want is a German state owner train company running UK trains and making profits that go to another country and we definitely dont want British Rail one out all out trades unions trying to hold the country to ransom - like they did in the 70's and like they have tried to do for the last couple of years here - and failed - as working from home has beaten them.

[Eric Cartman]

Re: Renationalising The Trains

I thought I said should be modelled on the Japanese way they have done it. Where they have both a standard JapanRail option or you can ride the bullet train run my a company for extra money - that gets you there quicker. The choice is with the customer.

What I certainly dont want is a German state owner train company running UK trains and making profits that go to another country and we definitely dont want British Rail one out all out trades unions trying to hold the country to ransom - like they did in the 70's and like they have tried to do for the last couple of years here - and failed - as working from home has beaten them.

Well surely if 'working from home has beaten them' we have nothing to worry about?

I am not sure the country should be making decisions based on what worked or didn't work 50+ years ago, we don't want to be stuck in the past.

I agree though that competition on lines would like make for a better service, but the current system doesn't really have that.