Justin Welby

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: Justin Welby

Your above comment was on Strobel speaking on the historical evidence for the Resurrection, yet at the same time you imply you've never denied the Resurrection!

So with Strobels two year investigation was focused on the bodily resurrection of Christ, can you tell us clearly - fluff or fact?

I can't remember ever specifically discussing the resurrection, that's why.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: Justin Welby

Interesting info about Strobel's fluff:

https://valerietarico.com/2019/03/20/how-case-for-christ-author-lee-strobel-fabricated-his-best-selling-story-an-interview-with-religion-critic-david-fitzgerald/

[jeepster]

Re: Justin Welby

Interesting info about Strobel's fluff:

https://valerietarico.com/2019/03/20...id-fitzgerald/

Truthpaste will believe any thing talking donkeys ect.

[Gofer Blue]

Re: Justin Welby

Truthpaste and Gofer - sorry, I can’t remember if I asked this before but would the proof of non-human intelligence (aliens) contradict your beliefs?

Also, do you believe in the firmament as described in the Bible, which suggests the Earth is flat? Thanks in advance. I’m genuinely interested in this topic.

My first go-to thoughts on any question regarding Biblical content are: did Jesus have anything to say on the matter? i.e. matters concerning the human condition. As far as I know Jesus had nothing to say about the shape of the earth or extraterrestrial beings, so any response I could give would have to be my own personal opinion.

Firstly, re aliens. It's an interesting question which I have thought about from time to time but I can't say it's kept me awake at night! If there are sentient beings out there similar to us, then like everything else in nature they were created by God. That does not in any way demean us, human kind. Perhaps we are unique in the sense that we alone acknowledge that there is a creator (God) which gives us a special relationship with him – who knows? So, no, proof of the existence of alien beings would not contradict my beliefs.

Secondly, re flat earth. I suspect Jesus wouldn't have wasted time discussing the shape of the earth and being God in human form he would have known the shape as he created it! What bearing would such knowledge have on what he would have regarded as being important in life? What use would such knowledge be to a blind beggar on the streets of Jerusalem in the 1st century or an orphaned child in Gaza in the 21st? These are the things he cares about.

[Gofer Blue]

Re: Justin Welby

Interesting info about Strobel's fluff:

https://valerietarico.com/2019/03/20...id-fitzgerald/

My prophecy came true then!...

I'm pretty confident that no-one who contributes to this debate will bother to read either of these as it will take some considerable time/effort and will instead probably take a short cut and read a summary critique by some well known atheist.

[truthpaste]

Re: Justin Welby

My prophecy came true then!...

I'm pretty confident that no-one who contributes to this debate will bother to read either of these as it will take some considerable time/effort and will instead probably take a short cut and read a summary critique by some well known atheist.

In the evidence for the Resurrection we should expect the likes of Fitzgerald and many others to try and discredit anyone who dares to suggest that history and science confirm what would be disasterous for the agnostic.

I note the response from one qualifed Doctor of Philosophy:-

People coming to read your article are told by Fitzgerald that Strobel is interviewing preachers, who have no expertise in New Testament history, and he provides the example of a person who has a PhD in the topic and who publishes in peer-reviewed New Testament journals! That is misleading. Utterly and objectively. But then this is Fitzgerald, the guy who routinely massacres classical history in his polemical books. He has a pretty long and substantiated record of playing loose with the facts in order to score an ideological point (e.g. his use and appeal to Seneca, Philo, Aramaic etc is just as troublesome). The phrase people in glass houses shouldn’t throw bricks rather springs to mind.

[truthpaste]

Re: Justin Welby

Strobel addresses the attempts to discredit his research You can look up each individual from the information in the article linked below.

FULL ARTICLE (small section below)


Why did I choose these scholars to interview for the book after having thoroughly studied literature from atheists, skeptics, left-wing professors, and others? Because after assessing the wide range of scholarship, I concluded that the views of these scholars most closely cohered to the historical record. The experts I interviewed have PhDs from Cambridge, Brandeis, Princeton, Durham, USC, Purdue and other major institutions. Incidentally, in his online post the atheist sought to disparage one interviewee by saying he was merely a “Baptist pastor,” neglecting to mention that he has a doctorate in New Testament from the University of Aberdeen and is a widely published and respected professor at a major seminary.

My books report extensively on the evidence for Christianity. I conducted each interview as reported, tape recorded them, edited them to fit the space (as my books disclose), and even allowed each interviewee, whether skeptic or Christian, to review the finished chapter before publication to ensure I hadn’t accidentally introduced any errors in the editing process. I gave each of them free rein to correct anything that was not accurate.

Now, twenty years after The Case for Christ came out, along comes this Internet post with the provocative headline that I somehow “fabricated” my story. That is false, plain and simple. In fact, if you read the post carefully, you’ll see he never really disputes that I was a spiritual skeptic who came to faith through an investigation of the evidence. Rather, he uses innuendo, half-truths, inaccuracies and twisted facts in an unsuccessful attempt to cast doubt on the credibility of my books.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: Justin Welby

My prophecy came true then!...

I'm pretty confident that no-one who contributes to this debate will bother to read either of these as it will take some considerable time/effort and will instead probably take a short cut and read a summary critique by some well known atheist.

Well first of all I watched the whole of the video that truthpaste linked to and I found it less than evidence per se. I also thought, and stated so on here, that his earlier hedonistic lifestyle being due to not being a Christian, was lacking in intellectual rigour. So rather than waste more time I looked him up on the net.
If I posted a link on here regarding what I would consider to be related to humanity's possibly most important figure, I would hope that such a link was not authored by someone who is less than authorititve and whose comments and professional integrity seem to be questioned.

I didn't state that Strobel's detractors were right and I simply stated that the comments concerened were interesting. However, they did seem to have a similarity or two in parts that I detected from the video but I don't hold up their comments as authorititve.

If I posted a link to a book on evolution I would understand if you read up on the author before committing to reading the book - and if it transpires that he also believed in fairies you may be a tad reticent to swallow his work whole.

By the way, using your own logic, have you ever read an authorititve book on evolution that has been revised this century? If so, which one and what flaws did you find in it?

[truthpaste]

Re: Justin Welby

Well first of all I watched the whole of the video that truthpaste linked to and I found it less than evidence per se. I also thought, and stated so on here, that his earlier hedonistic lifestyle being due to not being a Christian, was lacking in intellectual rigour. So rather than waste more time I looked him up on the net.
If I posted a link on here regarding what I would consider to be related to humanity's possibly most important figure, I would hope that such a link was not authored by someone who is less than authorititve and whose comments and professional integrity seem to be questioned.

I didn't state that Strobel's detractors were right and I simply stated that the comments concerened were interesting. However, they did seem to have a similarity or two in parts that I detected from the video but I don't hold up their comments as authorititve.

If I posted a link to a book on evolution I would understand if you read up on the author before committing to reading the book - and if it transpires that he also believed in fairies you may be a tad reticent to swallow his work whole.

By the way, using your own logic, have you ever read an authorititve book on evolution that has been revised this century? If so, which one and what flaws did you find in it?

Noted. So what type of evidence would convince you that Christ died, and was then seen alive after His death?

[Canton Kev]

Re: Justin Welby

Noted. So what type of evidence would convince you that Christ died, and was then seen alive after His death?

Grainy 12fps CCTV footage in black and white

[truthpaste]

Re: Justin Welby

By the way, using your own logic, have you ever read an authorititve book on evolution that has been revised this century? If so, which one and what flaws did you find in it?

While you are deliberating on the facts that would cause you to believe that Christ died and rose from the dead, I have started a new discussion re your question to allow this one to stay within a mile of the OP!

[Gofer Blue]

Re: Justin Welby

Strobel addresses the attempts to discredit his research You can look up each individual from the information in the article linked below.

FULL ARTICLE (small section below)

Thanks for the link. Very interesting and robust response from Strobel.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: Justin Welby

While you are deliberating on the facts that would cause you to believe that Christ died and rose from the dead, I have started a new discussion re your question to allow this one to stay within a mile of the OP!

I have nothing to deliberate. I have never mentioned the claim on here either way. However, not surprisingly, I don't believe it happened but anyone who applies logic can't deny that some things definitely didn't happen. Similarly, I can't disprove that any claims that a goblin was in my garden last night or that I was herdsman in Bhutan in my last life. If convincing evidence supported any of those possibilities I would look into it - but your so-called evidence is nothing of the sort and is very often intellectually extremely weak. You are welcome to forget my take on things and concentrate on the billions of other people who don't believe the stories you do (including some churches local to me, whose preachers do not preach the Garden of Eden as being literal). Oh yeah, try the Jewish lobby before you move on to the Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists et al.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: Justin Welby

Thanks for the link. Very interesting and robust response from Strobel.

Interesting - and it's fully acceptable to read refutations of anything, of course. Fair is fair.

My own comment about Strobel concerned the following quote which is bemusing to the majority of the population of the world who are not fundamental Christians:

“…I had a vested interest in the non-existence of God because I was living a rather immoral lifestyle and did not want to be held accountable for my behavior. To me, atheism opened up a world of hedonism that I knew wouldn’t be acceptable to God if he existed.”

The thought that we can have a licence to be immoral and hedonistic if we don't believe in the Christian god is rather a perverse notion for most people who can apply logic and empathy for one's fellow man. And on the other hand let's not forget that your god instructed the killings of people who didn't listen to priests, homosexuals, entire towns where some non-believers may have convinced some people to believe in a different god, non-virgins outside wedlock, people cursing their parents, non-believers and a lot else, including innocent women, children and babies.

[Gofer Blue]

Re: Justin Welby

Well first of all I watched the whole of the video that truthpaste linked to and I found it less than evidence per se. I also thought, and stated so on here, that his earlier hedonistic lifestyle being due to not being a Christian, was lacking in intellectual rigour. So rather than waste more time I looked him up on the net.
If I posted a link on here regarding what I would consider to be related to humanity's possibly most important figure, I would hope that such a link was not authored by someone who is less than authorititve and whose comments and professional integrity seem to be questioned.

I didn't state that Strobel's detractors were right and I simply stated that the comments concerened were interesting. However, they did seem to have a similarity or two in parts that I detected from the video but I don't hold up their comments as authorititve.

If I posted a link to a book on evolution I would understand if you read up on the author before committing to reading the book - and if it transpires that he also believed in fairies you may be a tad reticent to swallow his work whole.

By the way, using your own logic, have you ever read an authorititve book on evolution that has been revised this century? If so, which one and what flaws did you find in it?

I can appreciate your concern about this (your text highlighted in blue above), as the implication is that being an atheist leads to a hedonistic lifestyle. Whether we like it or not, that is Strobel's own stated position. I can identify to some extent with his situation. I come from a family whose ancestors were firmly rooted in Nonconformism (Methodism) from way back (late 1700's – the John Wesley era). My father, my grandfather and my great-grandfather were all strict teetotallers (they would never even enter a pub for example), non-smokers, and anti-gambling. My father was a teenager during the miners' strike and the Great Depression in the 1920's (his father was a miner) and he witnessed the effect of drunkenness on poor families first hand. So I suppose each person's definition of a hedonistic lifestyle would be quite different, depending on their upbringing. My father and grandfather would probably have been horrified when I took up drinking and smoking when I was at university – for them that would be a hedonistic lifestyle! When I became a Christian I gave up drinking and smoking, mainly because I did not want to be a bad example to my two lads later on (they were only about 2 – 3 years old at the time). Hence they could never say to me “it's OK for you drink/smoke but you won't allow me to” i.e. do as I say, not do as I do!

Re: books on evolution. The most recent books on evolution that I have read are all the classic Dawkins's publications: The Blind Watchmaker, The Selfish Gene and the God Delusion. I admit these are now quite old but still form the basic argument for the evolutionary process I think? I would have happily lapped up all this stuff during my A level days, when DNA and the famous Stanley Miller experiment seemed to be the answer to everything, and I soon gave up the notion of a creator God. However later on I came to realise that whilst the idea of a primitive life form evolving over millennia into the complex life forms we see today is an enticing one, and Dawkins's ingenious/persuasive theory seems to fit the bill, it has a fundamental and fatal flaw; and that is even the simplest imaginable organism such as a bacterial cell is HUGELY complicated and could not possibly have arisen by chance from a primordial soup.

As much as I have rejected Dawkins's theory I have never attempted to dig up any dirt on him or try to denigrate his character as has been done by some to Strobel. He is clearly a brilliant intellectual – it's just a pity in a way that he has become such an aggressive atheist, which I believe has even caused some embarrassment to his fellow atheists.