Runcorn by election.

[JamesWales]

Re: Runcorn by election.

For Farage in the 20s, read Mosley in the 30s, the motivation behind their parties is as old as the hills. In times of economic turmoil, populist grifters come to the fore offering all things to all men, and women.

Earlier on today you admitted you had no idea what their policies were, now a few hours later you are confidently comparing them to the National Union of Fascists from nearly 100 years ago

Give it a bloody rest. Just accept that people are frustrated and want change, the comparison is utterly ridiculous and you have zero evidence to back it up do you?

[JamesWales]

Re: Runcorn by election.

Quite so and they should be. This may prove the end of two party politics as we knew it. I also think in any future elections tactical voting might work against Nige. Lots of One Nation Tories will want to scupper them. The political roadmap has never been quite so blurred.

I agree, very interesting times. Reform now have to exist and deliver in the cut and thrust of service delivery. Have a clear majority on some councils which makes it easier but won't be easy at all and will come across the same problems any other party does

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Runcorn by election.

Earlier on today you admitted you had no idea what their policies were, now a few hours later you are confidently comparing them to the National Union of Fascists from nearly 100 years ago

Give it a bloody rest. Just accept that people are frustrated and want change, the comparison is utterly ridiculous and you have zero evidence to back it up do you?

You don’t half go off on one when you see what you think is a comparison between modern politicians and fascism don’t you. I’m comparing Farage and Mosley the people not talking about fascism - even if Farage does have a very dubious past on that score.

You’re trying to make out that we’re in dramatically changing times, I disagree because so much of what we’re seeing now is like what was happening nearly a century ago - my second sentence in my previous post emphasises what I’m trying to say, we’re not seeing anything new, it’s been around for centuries.

[JamesWales]

Re: Runcorn by election.

You don’t half go off on one when you see what you think is a comparison between modern politicians and fascism don’t you. I’m comparing Farage and Mosley the people not talking about fascism - even if Farage does have a very dubious past on that score.

You’re trying to make out that we’re in dramatically changing times, I disagree because so much of what we’re seeing now is like what was happening nearly a century ago - my second sentence in my previous post emphasises what I’m trying to say, we’re not seeing anything new, it’s been around for centuries.

I don't go off on one, I just think it's a pretty ignorant comment and absolutely stunningly insulting to people. Reform have far more in common with any party from the early 90s more than anything from before that party.

Of course new parties come along, but you don't need to compare them to leaders of fascist parties. Its just absurd and tiresome and doesn't do the party(ies) you support any favours whatsoever. In fact such comparisons is part of the push factor away from them.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Runcorn by election.

I don't go off on one, I just think it's a pretty ignorant comment and absolutely stunningly insulting to people. Reform have far more in common with any party from the early 90s more than anything from before that party.

Of course new parties come along, but you don't need to compare them to leaders of fascist parties. Its just absurd and tiresome and doesn't do the party(ies) you support any favours whatsoever. In fact such comparisons is part of the push factor away from them.

You do go off on one - have a look at the things you’ve said to me in your last two posts. Whether Farage is a Fascist or not is something which is up for debate (my view is that the modern version of the man is not), but it’s far from absurd or tiresome for anyone to ask the question of him because it’s certainly not a straightforward black and white issue.

By the way, what party from the early 90s does Reform have so much in common with?

[goats]

Re: Runcorn by election.

Reform would be Tories on steroids but without even a semblance of administrative nous. These "hard working" tradesmen types who are attracted to Farage like flies to shit will be seriously disappointed or worse if Nige's mob ever blustered their way into power.

They are already and have been since the Millenium…..:thumbup:

[goats]

Re: Runcorn by election.

For Farage in the 20s, read Mosley in the 30s, the motivation behind their parties is as old as the hills. In times of economic turmoil, populist grifters come to the fore offering all things to all men, and women.

Are we in economic turmoil now?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Runcorn by election.

You do go off on one - have a look at the things you’ve said to me in your last two posts. Whether Farage is a Fascist or not is something which is up for debate (my view is that the modern version of the man is not), but it’s far from absurd or tiresome for anyone to ask the question of him because it’s certainly not a straightforward black and white issue.

By the way, what party from the early 90s does Reform have so much in common with?

The BNP in suits

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Runcorn by election.

Are we in economic turmoil now?

I’d say we have been for five years at least.

[stevo]

Re: Runcorn by election.

Give it a bloody rest. Just accept that people are frustrated and want change,

I think the whole of this country want to see change. It’s just that many of us (hopefully the majority) know that Reform isn’t the answer, the reasons for which shouldn’t need explaining.

[JamesWales]

Re: Runcorn by election.

You do go off on one - have a look at the things you’ve said to me in your last two posts. Whether Farage is a Fascist or not is something which is up for debate (my view is that the modern version of the man is not), but it’s far from absurd or tiresome for anyone to ask the question of him because it’s certainly not a straightforward black and white issue.

By the way, what party from the early 90s does Reform have so much in common with?

In this thread we've had someone say (in jest I assume) their policies are to kick all the whites out, yet their chairman is not white. You said Farage hates immigrants when he's married to one. At the same time you both admitted you knew nothing of their policies.

We've subsequently had Sludge pop up and mention Hitler (he wins the CCMB Godwin award again) and now the BNP. You talk about the British Union of Fascists and compare things to the 1930s

If you can't see how this is just preposterous and incredibly sneering then so be it, but it's part of the reason great swathes of the working class turn away from the left. I suggest you all read the policies for what people voted for really. Not a bad starting point.

People, esp working class people, just want better lives and to feel things are moving forward. Collectively we havent really felt that since the mid naughties I would say, and people want better.

People didn't think Labour worked from 2008 upto 2010. People then gave the Tories a chance and kicked them out. We've been in the EU and now out of it and people are still dissatisfied. Not much changes. Maybe we have unrealistic expectations of what is achievable - I think we probably do to an extent - but people want change. They want more security and hope and a lot of other things. It's not massively complicated and it's nothing to do with Hitler and the 1930s or any of the other things. It's so insulting to voters to suggest it is, especially as these are people who in the last elections were voting Labour, Tory or Lib Dems.

Just does my head in every single time. People don't vote for a left-wing party and up pops someone claiming they must be fascists. It's like whack a mole.

[jon1959]

Re: Runcorn by election.

In this thread we've had someone say (in jest I assume) their policies are to kick all the whites out, yet their chairman is not white. You said Farage hates immigrants when he's married to one. At the same time you both admitted you knew nothing of their policies.

We've subsequently had Sludge pop up and mention Hitler (he wins the CCMB Godwin award again) and now the BNP. You talk about the British Union of Fascists and compare things to the 1930s

If you can't see how this is just preposterous and incredibly sneering then so be it, but it's part of the reason great swathes of the working class turn away from the left. I suggest you all read the policies for what people voted for really. Not a bad starting point.

People, esp working class people, just want better lives and to feel things are moving forward. Collectively we havent really felt that since the mid naughties I would say, and people want better.

People didn't think Labour worked from 2008 upto 2010. People then gave the Tories a chance and kicked them out. We've been in the EU and now out of it and people are still dissatisfied. Not much changes. Maybe we have unrealistic expectations of what is achievable - I think we probably do to an extent - but people want change. They want more security and hope and a lot of other things. It's not massively complicated and it's nothing to do with Hitler and the 1930s or any of the other things. It's so insulting to voters to suggest it is, especially as these are people who in the last elections were voting Labour, Tory or Lib Dems.

Just does my head in every single time. People don't vote for a left-wing party and up pops someone claiming they must be fascists. It's like whack a mole.

The 2020s look very different in some ways from the 1920s/30s but if you cannot see any parallels you are blind.

The post WW2 consensus is over as the last generation who experienced those times have died. We are in an era of growing wealth disparity, erosion of communities, well paid jobs and security. Services we expected to provide dignity and support are fraying or disappearing. Whole sections of the country feel abandoned as political promises are broken by both main parties. Right wing populism and demagogues are offering magic solutions (as they did a century ago) often based on directing hatred at ‘others’, but as then not the ‘others’ with the wealth and power.

Norms of behaviour are breaking down in mainstream politics and the media and echo chambers have replaced shared experience. The wider world is certainly more accessible than a century ago - but there the nationalistic (and yes sometimes fascistic) right is on the rise in the US, Russia, Hungary, Israel, Argentina and beyond - and these figures become icons for the disaffected around the world. There is a left wing populism in Europe and latin America but it is swamped by the right who own most of the mainstream and social media and control (dis)information and means of communicating.

The new right don’t have the same dress sense as Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Moseley or Lindburgh - but they share a lot of the same ideas and exploit the same disillusionment, despair and anger as their poster boys!

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Runcorn by election.

In this thread we've had someone say (in jest I assume) their policies are to kick all the whites out, yet their chairman is not white. You said Farage hates immigrants when he's married to one. At the same time you both admitted you knew nothing of their policies.

We've subsequently had Sludge pop up and mention Hitler (he wins the CCMB Godwin award again) and now the BNP. You talk about the British Union of Fascists and compare things to the 1930s

If you can't see how this is just preposterous and incredibly sneering then so be it, but it's part of the reason great swathes of the working class turn away from the left. I suggest you all read the policies for what people voted for really. Not a bad starting point.

People, esp working class people, just want better lives and to feel things are moving forward. Collectively we havent really felt that since the mid naughties I would say, and people want better.

People didn't think Labour worked from 2008 upto 2010. People then gave the Tories a chance and kicked them out. We've been in the EU and now out of it and people are still dissatisfied. Not much changes. Maybe we have unrealistic expectations of what is achievable - I think we probably do to an extent - but people want change. They want more security and hope and a lot of other things. It's not massively complicated and it's nothing to do with Hitler and the 1930s or any of the other things. It's so insulting to voters to suggest it is, especially as these are people who in the last elections were voting Labour, Tory or Lib Dems.

Just does my head in every single time. People don't vote for a left-wing party and up pops someone claiming they must be fascists. It's like whack a mole.

“Just does my head in” = Goes off on one.

My post about what Reform Uk stands for was semi serious. I had a fair idea of what they (Farage) are all about, but read the link to the manifesto posted. I then posted the Institutes of Financial Studies’ analysis of said manifesto which, essentially, says Reform’s sums are pretty wildly wrong. As I said earlier, Farage the charismatic, to some, populist is offering all things to all men, and women, like charismatic populists have done for centuries before him and it doesn’t have a history of ending well.

You’re going off on one about modern day parallels with the 30s, as you do every time the subject comes up on here, on the same day that Trump was taking steps to influence what is transmitted on public service broadcasting in America and you have to wonder how long public service broadcasting would last in it’s present format under a Reform Government that, no doubt, would have little problem with the stuff churned out by the likes of GB News and large sections of print and social media.I won’t use the word that sets you off on one, but it all sounds very, very authoritarian to me in the manner of much of what was seen in the 1930s.

The reason people want change is that they’ve been told by Labour and Tory Governments for seventeen years that they have to tighten their belts to cover the cost of a financial crisis that was caused mostly by greedy bankers. They voted for change, with no great enthusiasm, last July and instead have got more of the same from a timid, austerity driven version of Labour which is targeting the have nots while the rich get richer. Farage and his party are offering something different, but it’s something that cannot be delivered if you go by the analysis of respected and politically neutral financial analysts. In that way, they offer nothing different from populist parties of the right, and left, which tend to prosper when people are unhappy with their lot, but are nearly always shown not to have the answers large sections of the public are looking for.

[Jordi Culé]

Re: Runcorn by election.

Starmers response to the reduced Labour vote is an interesting one.

Rather than pull back on policies such as benefit cuts he appears to suggest they need to become more like Reform/Tories.

Good to see Sir Kier as a man of principles (the massive cuunt).

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Runcorn by election.

Starmers response to the reduced Labour vote is an interesting one.

Rather than pull back on policies such as benefit cuts he appears to suggest they need to become more like Reform/Tories.

Good to see Sir Kier as a man of principles (the massive cuunt).

That was laughable wasn't it

He said ....I hear you

😆