Wales v England

[surge]

Re: Wales v England

He's apologised today and said he got them both wrong.

The TMO doesn't help on the knock on though. What was he looking at?

Why did he get the first one wrong? "The water carrier...." shouldn't have been on the pitch if the only reason the game had stopped was to give one side the chance to avoid further punishment. Isn't it a similar effect to footballer going down with "cramp" to give their side chance to talk tactics and refresh? I don't think enough time was given and communication could have been improved but how much do teams talk in that scenario and how much extra should they be allowed to say? Something to decide going forward rather than out-of-the-blue on the day.

I'm sure the England camp isn't just discussing those two moments though given their ambitions.

[jon1959]

Re: Wales v England

He's apologised today and said he got them both wrong.

The TMO doesn't help on the knock on though. What was he looking at?

Gauzere not only consulted at length with the TMO - and both watched the 'knock on' incident in slow motion several times - he also checked with his two Irish assistant referees who had also been watching the big screen, and both agreed with his call.

After thousands of pages of reportage, analysis and comment on the two controversial tries, there is still no definitive outcome.

The referee has subsequently agreed that he didn't give England quite enough time to set themselves for the Adams try (they did on one side of the pitch but not the side that mattered) - so fine margins and maybe he called time back on a couple of seconds too soon - and whilst agreeing on further slow motion viewings (per the reported phone call with Joel Jutge) that LRZ did knock the ball forward and didn't have control the main confession was that he should have made an on-field decision himself and not consulted the TMO!

Still, it gives England supporters all they need to claim they were robbed, and to ignore all the other bad refereeing decisions that affected other teams in the competition. If the Adams try hadn't been given Wales would almost certainly have kicked a 3 point penalty. If Maro Itoje had been yellow carded as he should have been, the normal rule of thumb is that a 10 minute sin-binning will cost his side 7 points. So Wales gained 4 points from dubious first half refereeing decisions. OK - a win by 12 points not 16!

[StraightOuttaCanton]

Re: Wales v England

Gauzere not only consulted at length with the TMO - and both watched the 'knock on' incident in slow motion several times - he also checked with his two Irish assistant referees who had also been watching the big screen, and both agreed with his call.

After thousands of pages of reportage, analysis and comment on the two controversial tries, there is still no definitive outcome.

The referee has subsequently agreed that he didn't give England quite enough time to set themselves for the Adams try (they did on one side of the pitch but not the side that mattered) - so fine margins and maybe he called time back on a couple of seconds too soon - and whilst agreeing on further slow motion viewings (per the reported phone call with Joel Jutge) that LRZ did knock the ball forward and didn't have control the main confession was that he should have made an on-field decision himself and not consulted the TMO!

Still, it gives England supporters all they need to claim they were robbed, and to ignore all the other bad refereeing decisions that affected other teams in the competition. If the Adams try hadn't been given Wales would almost certainly have kicked a 3 point penalty. If Maro Itoje had been yellow carded as he should have been, the normal rule of thumb is that a 10 minute sin-binning will cost his side 7 points. So Wales gained 4 points from dubious first half refereeing decisions. OK - a win by 12 points not 16!

Agreed.... worth adding that if the kick to the corner for Adams hadn’t been perfect and had been caught by the England defender who then went the length of the pitch to score, then no one would be clamoring that it was taken too quickly and that Wales should have the ball back for a penalty in front of the posts. Biggar gambled for a try and played it superbly

[ToTaL ITK]

Re: Wales v England

wow... there are probably about 15 dodgy pens given every week in football and the general reaction is that the ref's a whanker.
In rugby it makes the national press and needs to be dissected. Odd

[Harry Paget Flashman]

Re: Wales v England

wow... there are probably about 15 dodgy pens given every week in football and the general reaction is that the ref's a whanker.
In rugby it makes the national press and needs to be dissected. Odd

Did you see what happened when Frank Lampards goal against Germany was ruled out?

They introduced VAR.

[Harry Paget Flashman]

Re: Wales v England

Gauzere not only consulted at length with the TMO - and both watched the 'knock on' incident in slow motion several times - he also checked with his two Irish assistant referees who had also been watching the big screen, and both agreed with his call.

After thousands of pages of reportage, analysis and comment on the two controversial tries, there is still no definitive outcome.

The referee has subsequently agreed that he didn't give England quite enough time to set themselves for the Adams try (they did on one side of the pitch but not the side that mattered) - so fine margins and maybe he called time back on a couple of seconds too soon - and whilst agreeing on further slow motion viewings (per the reported phone call with Joel Jutge) that LRZ did knock the ball forward and didn't have control the main confession was that he should have made an on-field decision himself and not consulted the TMO!

Still, it gives England supporters all they need to claim they were robbed, and to ignore all the other bad refereeing decisions that affected other teams in the competition. If the Adams try hadn't been given Wales would almost certainly have kicked a 3 point penalty. If Maro Itoje had been yellow carded as he should have been, the normal rule of thumb is that a 10 minute sin-binning will cost his side 7 points. So Wales gained 4 points from dubious first half refereeing decisions. OK - a win by 12 points not 16!

I can't see any reason that it wasn't a knock on.

[jon1959]

Re: Wales v England

I can't see any reason that it wasn't a knock on.

I also think it was a knock on - but all four officials at the match felt it had been knocked backwards onto the English player.

Two days later after a media storm the referee (allegedly) accepts he got that wrong.

The incident also highlights a few ambiguities in the law book (especially about control of the ball), and the fact that most pundits and fans are experts on custom and practice, but ignorant of what the laws actually say. Jeremy Guscott summarised it well.

If it was totally clear cut there wouldn't be tens of thousands of wannabe referees still arguing the toss on social media! But yes, Wales had some luck with the calls.

[ToTaL ITK]

Re: Wales v England

Did you see what happened when Frank Lampards goal against Germany was ruled out?

They introduced VAR.

And on this forum there is bi weekly moaning about VAR. Accept the decisions they will even out in the end.Tired of England
moaning about stop the steal

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Wales v England

Gauzere not only consulted at length with the TMO - and both watched the 'knock on' incident in slow motion several times - he also checked with his two Irish assistant referees who had also been watching the big screen, and both agreed with his call.

After thousands of pages of reportage, analysis and comment on the two controversial tries, there is still no definitive outcome.

The referee has subsequently agreed that he didn't give England quite enough time to set themselves for the Adams try (they did on one side of the pitch but not the side that mattered) - so fine margins and maybe he called time back on a couple of seconds too soon - and whilst agreeing on further slow motion viewings (per the reported phone call with Joel Jutge) that LRZ did knock the ball forward and didn't have control the main confession was that he should have made an on-field decision himself and not consulted the TMO!

Still, it gives England supporters all they need to claim they were robbed, and to ignore all the other bad refereeing decisions that affected other teams in the competition. If the Adams try hadn't been given Wales would almost certainly have kicked a 3 point penalty. If Maro Itoje had been yellow carded as he should have been, the normal rule of thumb is that a 10 minute sin-binning will cost his side 7 points. So Wales gained 4 points from dubious first half refereeing decisions. OK - a win by 12 points not 16!

Glad you mentioned that England were set up as they needed to be to their left for the first try before the ref said the clock should go back on - as Farrell delivered his talk to the team under the posts, his team were equi distant from each touchline, yet they left the side where any cross kick was going to go wide open.

Nigel Owens said on Scrum Five last night that the second try should not have been allowed because Rees-Zamitt never had the ball under control after it had gone forward, if he had been able to do that then the try would have been a legitimate one.

Having been caught out by the first try, England were then caught napping with the third one with their full back of all people turning his back on the play. England played as if they didn’t have a brain in their head either individually or collectively - the fuss regarding the refereeing is a diversionary tactic to try and make them look less stupid.

[City123]

Re: Wales v England

I also think it was a knock on - but all four officials at the match felt it had been knocked backwards onto the English player.

Two days later after a media storm the referee (allegedly) accepts he got that wrong.

The incident also highlights a few ambiguities in the law book (especially about control of the ball), and the fact that most pundits and fans are experts on custom and practice, but ignorant of what the laws actually say. Jeremy Guscott summarised it well.

If it was totally clear cut there wouldn't be tens of thousands of wannabe referees still arguing the toss on social media! But yes, Wales had some luck with the calls.

Martin Johnson was the perfect example of this on the weekend when he said "by the letter of the law its not a knock on, but 98 times out of 100 its given"

Did Wales get some luck? Certainly, but like you said Itoje should have been carded & wasn't. The fact of the matter is it was even going into the last 20 minutes and Wales won it with ease, you can't give away the number of penalties England did and expect to win the game.