Unwatchable

[A Quiet Monkfish]

Re: Unwatchable

DJ was an old-school romantic 442 that played like a 424, we did spend (wages) on decent players but ultimately didn't achieve the goal of the premier league. Football was still under the spell of Mourinho's anti-football and Malky was a disciple, the rot starts there.

Pep then starts exporting Tikki Taka and Klopp's 433 all-out attack heavy metal football pushing out Mourinho's anti-football.

IMO, Warnock is closer to Klopp 433 getting the ball forward quickly with a higher dependence on physicality over pure football skill but we hired Mad Mick, Harris, Morison, then Hudson when we should have got a German manager well-versed in 433 as we had that DNA already there and a fanbase used to speed on the flanks and the ball going forward.

We chose the wrong model to copy, Peps slow, deliberate, highly technical passing as we just didn't have the players, or the fanbase, but importantly hired managers and coaches who were known as scrappers, not technical tacticians.

I know there is a constituent on here who say they'd prefer to lose playing good football, but Championship football is just about winning. Losing beautifully got us 14K at Ninian Park, winning ugly sold out the CCS

It's all a bit fake to me. There are big decisions for the hierarchy, all in on Bulut and get more technical players because this lot can't execute what he wants to do but they will be expensive and may see us in pretty much the same position if it doesn't work out, with a lot of foreign players wanting to go home but under contract

Moore aside, I doubt Bulut has much knowledge of decent potential signings from the PL/EFL. I certainly know no-one else connected to the club has..

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: Unwatchable

IMO, Warnock is closer to Klopp 433 getting the ball forward quickly with a higher dependence on physicality over pure football skill

Liverpool can pass the ball around well when they need to. Warnock's City couldn't pass water.

There's also the use of the long ball, which needs considering. How often would Klopp's side thump a ball 70 yards upfield with no real aim other than it might go in the direction of a target man? When they play a long ball it is usually to feet and the pass is meant for a specific player. We did that initially in our promotion season, when we battered Villa and won our opening 5 games. It was great to watch. The second half of the season we were much more a side that ground out results.

I know there is a constituent on here who say they'd prefer to lose playing good football, but Championship football is just about winning.

Why has it got to be one or the other? A change in footballing direction doesn't happen overnight. There'll be problems and bad results along the way, but that's true of life at times as well. As TOBW says, we've had a succession of managers who have given up on us playing a more passing game because of results. Where's the forward planning? I suspect there is little from our owner, who thinks we have a good chance of winning the playoffs this season. He wants results now. That's not the way to run a football club. It's a part of the reason we've been in the shit for the last few seasons.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: Unwatchable

Moore aside, I doubt Bulut has much knowledge of decent potential signings from the PL/EFL. I certainly know no-one else connected to the club has..

And how damning a statement is that? Tan has been our owner for 13 years. I wonder how much networking he's done with other sides in those years, how many contacts has he, and our board made? How much has he learned from other clubs?

[llan bluebird]

Re: Unwatchable

Liverpool can pass the ball around well when they need to. Warnock's City couldn't pass water.

There's also the use of the long ball, which needs considering. How often would Klopp's side thump a ball 70 yards upfield with no real aim other than it might go in the direction of a target man? When they play a long ball it is usually to feet and the pass is meant for a specific player. We did that initially in our promotion season, when we battered Villa and won our opening 5 games. It was great to watch. The second half of the season we were much more a side that ground out results.



Why has it got to be one or the other? A change in footballing direction doesn't happen overnight. There'll be problems and bad results along the way, but that's true of life at times as well. As TOBW says, we've had a succession of managers who have given up on us playing a more passing game because of results. Where's the forward planning? I suspect there is little from our owner, who thinks we have a good chance of winning the playoffs this season. He wants results now. That's not the way to run a football club. It's a part of the reason we've been in the shit for the last few seasons.

I know Liverpool are not a big "9" aimless long ball team, they pass it to pull teams around to allow their wide forwards enough separation for the long PASS into space or feet. My argument isn't that Liverpool are good or bad, it's they don't have the budget of Pep so play a game based upon something they excel at and then recruit for that system.

We have staggered around since Malky's sacking trying to work out who we are. Warnock for not much money turned us into a promotion team by not trying to copy Pep. There were much better squads than ours left in the championship almost throwing games by incompetently passing out from the back. If your opposition is making mistakes allow them. The championship is generally evenly matched so the team with the fewest errors normally wins.

The goal for any championship club is to get promoted. The easiest way is to play percentage minimal-risk championship football (Warnock) but when you get to the premier league giving the ball to much better teams generally kills you. Its a conundrum

What we are trying to do is play the "right way" with good League One players. Its madness. We have won tight games through a decent set play game and a defensive setup. Its almost Malky without the class.

I agree its about the owner, we just have to hope for the best

[A Quiet Monkfish]

Re: Unwatchable

And how damning a statement is that? Tan has been our owner for 13 years. I wonder how much networking he's done with other sides in those years, how many contacts has he, and our board made? How much has he learned from other clubs?

He's 5000 miles away. Unfortunately he left Choo and Dalman to run the shop and their football knowledge was zero.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Unwatchable

Unless we are bought by the next messiah then we are stuck with tan and we clearly are not going to be buying our way out of the championship

It's pointless even analysing the situation

It may be that bulut is the answer and the best we can hope for is a few low cost signings who turn us into a regular top ten side with a sniff of a chance with a fair wind

[llan bluebird]

Re: Unwatchable

Unless we are bought by the next messiah then we are stuck with tan and we clearly are not going to be buying our way out of the championship

It's pointless even analysing the situation

It may be that Bulut is the answer and the best we can hope for is a few low-cost signings who turn us into a regular top-ten side with a sniff of a chance with a fair wind

I get the impression that Bulut is here to expose himself to a larger and wealthier circle and I just can't see him being happy with us being a mid-table team as that is essentially obscurity.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Unwatchable

I get the impression that Bulut is here to expose himself to a larger and wealthier circle and I just can't see him being happy with us being a mid-table team as that is essentially obscurity.

Well plenty of our fans seem to think that just 6 months or so into his job he's not up to it

I think they are wrong but even if they are not it really is a case of given our position what is the alternative ?

I think he's good enough to mould us into a good side with some new blood and a chance to offload those that are surplus to requirements

I think if he does that then bigger clubs may well be interested in his signature but nothing we can do to stop that

[Pedro de la Rosa]

Re: Unwatchable

Why is it that a succession of managers have given up on trying to play more of a passing game? Because our sides have been put together in a manner which doesn’t put as high an emphasis on skill and technique as most other clubs and we end up with teams that can only play a passing game hesitantly and poorly

Because the recruitment stinks. Take Steve Morison, he signed Rinomhota, Adams and Sawyers to supplement Ralls and Wintle. How on God's green Earth are we supposed to pass the ball around with that 5? The centre halves can't play, yet incredibly our centre halves under Morison were more likely to pick a pass than our centre mids .

We have to sign people that don't treat the football as an object that must be dispatched as soon as possible. There's only two players that have anywhere near the required abilities to play for Leicester, and that's Colwill and Ng.

Re Bulut, the players are not capable of implementing what he's trying to do. Alnwick, Goutas and McGuinness can't play out from the back, so you've got a problem. The midfielders can't turn and do anything with it, that's why you see Wintle careering back 5 yards when he receives the ball, and the ball doesn't stick up top, unless Etete plays who couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo. I admire him, he works hard, has promising signs but he's not going to make it at this level as he can't finish.

Baby steps and all that but Bulut is not above criticism. After a strong start, the players have gone backwards and the promising signs from Tanner (and others) have faded. I don't think they're learning or getting better. We do need serious reinforcements though, so many of the players are poor but I do think we should be doing better with the first team we had, and Bulut's inability to get a tune out of players like Bowler is poor.

[NYCBlue]

Re: Unwatchable

Liverpool can pass the ball around well when they need to. Warnock's City couldn't pass water.

There's also the use of the long ball, which needs considering. How often would Klopp's side thump a ball 70 yards upfield with no real aim other than it might go in the direction of a target man? When they play a long ball it is usually to feet and the pass is meant for a specific player.

This.

To call Liverpool a long-ball team just because they have excellent ball players and one of the best players in the world making runs on the right hand side is ridiculous. If we could do that I'd take "long ball" all day, every day. When we have played long ball in the past it was all about lumping it upfield and hoping for a decent outcome. I don't understand why people complain about playing out from the back. Why would you not do that? You pass to one of your own players and then have them do the same. OK, sometimes it breaks down but surely it's better than a 50/50 big boot which if it gets on the head of a defender ends up back at the halfway line anyway.

[Taffy Blue in Berkshire]

Re: Unwatchable

Interesting reading the thoughts of many on the subject. What I find difficult to accept is the apparent lack of concern to turn things around and make changes. I had a lot of success in my career by taking on things others wouldn't and getting results. There's also a personal pride issue in not wanting to be associated with failing or coming 2nd. OK it's obvious we could benefit from some new talent but it's not here yet if it comes at all. I feel really sorry for fans who have paid good money for season tickets only to see this. I have seen 2 games at the CCS this year namely QPR and Norwich. It's a lot of effort and cost for me to come down and the appeal is not there. I remember in the past at NP when we were in the lower leagues I saw all but 3-4 home games all season and felt the effort worth the return.

I am probably in the minority but I've always been suspicious of Bulut's ability and experience. Opposition defences probably relish playing us because they know there'll be very little to do. Yes the lack of a tower up front to take down the ball, shoot or distribute is an issue.

When the going gets tough the tough should get going but we seem to give up or start trying in the 80th minute when the game is already lost.

I don't think Bulut is 100% to blame and as has been pointed out his coaching team ought also to be under the cosh.

Not optimistic for QPR and still remember being there last season when we got beaten.

Guess it's going to be a long winter.

[llan bluebird]

Re: Unwatchable

This.

To call Liverpool a long-ball team just because they have excellent ball players and one of the best players in the world making runs on the right hand side is ridiculous. If we could do that I'd take "long ball" all day, every day. When we have played long ball in the past it was all about lumping it upfield and hoping for a decent outcome. I don't understand why people complain about playing out from the back. Why would you not do that? You pass to one of your own players and then have them do the same. OK, sometimes it breaks down but surely it's better than a 50/50 big boot which if it gets on the head of a defender ends up back at the halfway line anyway.

I'd love it if we could do it with any conviction. But we can't along with half the championship. Its all a bit fake to me, we are pretending to be a "progressive" team. The question is I can see what Citeh and Liverpool are doing, what are we trying to do?
The championship is a heavily analyzed league, they all are, but it is system over individuality as it is so close.

After 10 games teams sussed us and thats it, no response. No need to press, just a low block and wait for us to pass it around the back 3 (no one trusts Coliins) and one of the sitters drops, just wait for them to get impatient and lose it.

We couldn't go route one properly if we wanted, maybe we'll have that option from tomorrow (fingers crossed) then the opposition have to defend deeper as the good old fashioned flick on is a weapon but so is the 9 holding onto it, and giving it to the 10 with a bit of space. Anyway, it will give the defenders a bit more space to do something with the ball as teams have to plan for the long kick or the short ball, at the moment we are so boringly predictable.

[splott parker]

Re: Unwatchable

Alnwick kicked long a couple of times against Leicester, one led to a corner for us that Ralls took and failed to clear the first defender. It showed though that mixing it up a bit from the ‘keeper can work. It’s a pity Alnwick didn’t take the corner though

[Tuerto]

Re: Unwatchable

I get the impression that Bulut is here to expose himself to a larger and wealthier circle and I just can't see him being happy with us being a mid-table team as that is essentially obscurity.

If that's the case, then Great!

[PhyllisStant]

Re: Unwatchable

I think he's doing a pretty decent job results wise. At times we've been great to watch and overall better than we've been for a few years.

My main gripe though is a lack of plan B. Okay we've got a paper thin squad but there's been no real change in tactics or formation when we're not winning. Maybe try playing with wingbacks, or two up front occasionally.