Scottish Independence

[xsnaggle]

Re: Scottish Independence

it was an idiotic decision to leave a huge trading partner on our doorstep by voting to leave Europe

Utter madness and stupidity , much of it based on ignorance , xenophobia and bullshit from the vote leave parties

And its going to come and bite us on the arse , big time

And Scotland leaving the UK would be a similarly stupid and wreckless decision , with long standing implications

As is Welsh independence

We know that the Welsh language was almost destroyed but its stronger now

We know that the UK economy over the years benefitted massively from Welsh coal , iron and steel and other heavy industry

But independence is not the answer

I tend to agree with that and now Ms Sturgeon is peddling what some would say are lies and praying on the ignorance and phobia of people, such as telling them they would walk straight back into the EU. Their budget deficit alone would preclude that happening.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: Scottish Independence

I think the SNP over estimate thier appeal , they get plenty of votes in normal elections as for that vote representing independence is another matter .

Yes I believe everyone should vote, as currently we've all part of a collective union.

I believe it is a matter for the people of Scotland.

We were a part of a collective union in Europe but only we decided whether or not to stay in it or not.

[chris lee]

Re: Scottish Independence

I always find it difficult to comprehend those who make political arguments for independence such as SNP and Plaid, but hate Brexit, while I do understand the notion that they may dislike Westminster but not Brussels. The arguments about why self governance is good for their nation but Brexit is bad the for the UK often completely contradict each over.

[Wash DC Blue]

Re: Scottish Independence

I always find it difficult to comprehend those who make political arguments for independence such as SNP and Plaid, but hate Brexit, while I do understand the notion that they may dislike Westminster but not Brussels. The arguments about why self governance is good for their nation but Brexit is bad the for the UK often completely contradict each over.

Some people just don’t like Britain, Nation States and what they stand for.

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

Re: Scottish Independence

I always find it difficult to comprehend those who make political arguments for independence such as SNP and Plaid, but hate Brexit, while I do understand the notion that they may dislike Westminster but not Brussels. The arguments about why self governance is good for their nation but Brexit is bad the for the UK often completely contradict each over.

Scottish/Welsh independence and Brexit are different things but how would you say self governance and Brexit completely contradict each other?

[surge]

Re: Scottish Independence

- Scottish people should be allowed to vote. I don't see any reason why the rest of the UK should

- If you thought breaking away from the EU was difficult then you ain't see nothing yet, and it will be harder again for Wales. We're 5 years from EU referendum and will probably take at least another year before Brexit is somewhat stabilized (in reality both sides will see need for re-negotiation and that will start so Brexit never really finished) but Scottish exit will take longer than that.

- The most likely result at the next election is a further Tory majority (re-writing boundary rules, funding rules, refusal to move past FPTP - the voting system is massively in their favour even before success as a party comes into it) so Scotland have a further 9 years of an anti-devolution, culture war driven, anti-European British government. I said Brexit will take at least another year (6 years) so can Scotland achieve some sort of stability of independence in the remaining 9 years and will they be better off at the end of that than having yet another Tory government they don't want throughout that time?

- Even if Scotland don't vote for independence, having the conversation about it and having a government preparing for it is going to make them a stronger nation than one dependent on "cross-boarder Tories" as they're positioning themselves in North Wales.

- Even if Scotland cannot leave the UK because it's too difficult, wouldn't it be nice if they didn't want to leave because staying part of the UK allowed them to achieve what they wanted to do without the break-up of the UK?

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: Scottish Independence

I always find it difficult to comprehend those who make political arguments for independence such as SNP and Plaid, but hate Brexit, while I do understand the notion that they may dislike Westminster but not Brussels. The arguments about why self governance is good for their nation but Brexit is bad the for the UK often completely contradict each over.

You could equally suggest that it's daft to support leaving one union while being entirely behind another one.

From my perspective, the more power that Westminster has to rule over Wales can only be a bad thing. We gave Westminster more power by leaving the EU. The next step is to remove devolved governments and have Westminster rule the entire UK. I fundamentally disagree with that.

[surge]

Re: Scottish Independence

I always find it difficult to comprehend those who make political arguments for independence such as SNP and Plaid, but hate Brexit, while I do understand the notion that they may dislike Westminster but not Brussels. The arguments about why self governance is good for their nation but Brexit is bad the for the UK often completely contradict each over.

Official EU voting records* show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999, according to UK in a Changing Europe Fellows Sara Hagemann and Simon Hix. In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts...-uk-influence/

Probably no such thing as self government but the interests of the EU and UK aligned 95% of the time and opposed only 2% of the time. Do you think the percentages would be the same for Scotland and the UK?

[Lord Dargavel]

Re: Scottish Independence

Scots living outside Scotland shouldn't have a vote unless there are exceptional circumstances. Just like I should have no vote in a Welsh referendum.

Absolute nonsense!

[xsnaggle]

Re: Scottish Independence

Probably no such thing as self government but the interests of the EU and UK aligned 95% of the time and opposed only 2% of the time. Do you think the percentages would be the same for Scotland and the UK?

The figures do not necessarily show that. There may have been occasions where the UK voted 'yes' and were on the losing side and other occasions where they voted 'no' and were on the winning side. Taken bare of any further information the numbers are pointless.

[Gofer Blue]

Re: Scottish Independence

I wouldn't like to see Scotland leave the union but I wouldn't stand in their way either, if that is what the majority of Scots want. I would strongly suggest though that the bar be set at a minimum 66% majority otherwise they will have a BREXIT type situation where the country is split down the middle and the bitterness and recriminations will go on and on...

Whenever I hear Sturgeon and Blackford whinging about independence and how dare the wicked Westminster government try to usurp the will of the Scottish people, I must admit I feel like saying ok get on with it, good luck and goodbye!

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: Scottish Independence

Absolute nonsense!

You are more than welcome to disagree with me and I will respect your opinion - but just responding with 'Absolute nonsense' doesn't really add anything meaningful to the debate, old fruit.

By the way, do you think I, as a Welsh person based in England, should be able to vote if there is a referendum on Welsh independence?

[lardy]

Re: Scottish Independence

WWhy the zap. He's not catching me out is he? I already said I don't know the answers, I'm just trying to see what other peoples opinions are on the whole question.

The zap was for my reply to lifeonmars, not you. Don't be sensitive!

[lardy]

Re: Scottish Independence

How would they be massively affected? If they are that concerned they should move back to the region they want to have a say in.
And what criteria should apply to allow such people to vote? What defines anyone as being Scottish or having spent enough time in Scotland? Should a Devonian who lived for 20 years in Scotland have a vote after returning to Devon a year ago?
Should anyone have a say in the future of a country when they no longer live in it?
Should Scots who live abroad have a vote?
Should Scots who have lived for 10 years outside Scotland have a vote? Should those who may never have to endure the consequences of the vote have a say?

I think it's simpler and more logical for only those registered as a resident in Scotland to have a vote - and consistent with our current electoral system when voting for our MPs. Those contributing to the local economy and who use the services provided by the taxes they pay should have a say - and not an exile like me.

Of course they'd be massively affected, that's the whole point - to make big changes.

I think British people who have lived abroad for less than 15 years are still allowed to register to vote. That seems more reasonable to me than saying you lose your rights if you move and if you want them then you should move back.

[lardy]

Re: Scottish Independence

The figures do not necessarily show that. There may have been occasions where the UK voted 'yes' and were on the losing side and other occasions where they voted 'no' and were on the winning side. Taken bare of any further information the numbers are pointless.

The figures do show that. That's what "winning side" means.