Looking at the national league- many of our 90s and 00s rivals in it

[RichardM]

Re: Looking at the national league- many of our 90s and 00s rivals in it

Were you at the game yesterday ?

Because the actual crowd was no more than 15 k

That tells everyone the sort of support we have and would get if we went down to league one

We are not a Derby, Pompey, Wednesday , Sunderland, Leeds etc

The crowds are low because the football is boring and we usually lose at home. If we were playing more attractive football and winning more often the crowds would go up whichever division we were in

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: Looking at the national league- many of our 90s and 00s rivals in it

Were you at the game yesterday ?

Because the actual crowd was no more than 15 k

That tells everyone the sort of support we have and would get if we went down to league one

We are not a Derby, Pompey, Wednesday , Sunderland, Leeds etc

Crowds include season ticket sales as we know. They haven't been great for months and I reckon the shocking football has contributed to that. After the Preston game I vowed not to return this season as I've been generally bored shitless when I've seen us at home. Could spend my money far better than wasting £100 on watching crap, by the time I spend out on trains, food, beer and tickets. As I've said before, meeting up with friends has almost become more important over the last few years while we've been rubbish.

You still won't have it that, if we were challenging for promotion from League 1, we'd get better crowds. It's happened to us in our history. It's happened to lots of other clubs as well. You continue believing what you want, I'll stick with what happens statistically and I'll be right.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: Looking at the national league- many of our 90s and 00s rivals in it

The crowds are low because the football is boring and we usually lose at home. If we were playing more attractive football and winning more often the crowds would go up whichever division we were in

Absolutely, but Sludge won't have any of that.

[olderblue]

Re: Looking at the national league- many of our 90s and 00s rivals in it

Absolutely, but Sludge won't have any of that.

Scunthorpe, Chester, Hereford and Darlington are all in National League North

I remember going to Scunthorpes old ground
Old Show ground, before they moved to the “first new build ground “ Glanford park

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: Looking at the national league- many of our 90s and 00s rivals in it

Scunthorpe, Chester, Hereford and Darlington are all in National League North

I remember going to Scunthorpes old ground
Old Show ground, before they moved to the “first new build ground “ Glanford park

Nice post, but not sure what it has to do with my reply.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Looking at the national league- many of our 90s and 00s rivals in it

The crowds are low because the football is boring and we usually lose at home. If we were playing more attractive football and winning more often the crowds would go up whichever division we were in

I agree but not by as much as they should

We are not a well supported club

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Looking at the national league- many of our 90s and 00s rivals in it

Absolutely, but Sludge won't have any of that.

I think you are consistently deluded when it comes to our support

Every club known to man gets better support with success

But our starting point is much lower than clubs like Derby, Sunderland etc

We are simply not a big club even by championship standards and our hardcore loyal support is not big enough to sustain the club and its always been the problem

We have always been a selling club for that reason and when we do push the boat out .....eg dave Jones era ......our crowds were not big enough to sustain it

It's always been the same

South Wales will support a successful team but anything else and our support drops away alarmingly

I mean you can big the club up as much and as often as you like but many of us on here watching cardiff city play in front of crowds of less than 2500 not that long ago

For a city the size of Cardiff with its catchment areas that is absolutely shocking 🤯

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Looking at the national league- many of our 90s and 00s rivals in it

It's an interesting stat that, whenever we have dropped into the third tier, we've had better crowds when we've been going for promotion from the third tier than we did in being relegated.

I'd be interested to know why our crowds in the early 1970s halved from 1971 to 1973. It must have been more than just selling Toshack, more like going from a side that finished 3rd and just missed out on promotion, to a side avoiding relegation for a couple of seasons. The 70s and 80s were also a period of decline in attendances. Wolves went from an average of nearly 26k in 1980 to 4k in the third division 6 seasons later, yet had 14k in the same division 3 years later when they won it. I don't think it helped us that we were relegated at a time when the game across the UK was in such decline and our hooligan issues won't have encouraged others.

Our crowds have been more consistent over the last decade or so than probably at any other time in our history. We know we can virtually sell out our ground in the Premier League. Give us a season of decent football and challenging properly for the playoffs and we'll get well over 20k. There's not a shred of evidence to suggest our crowds would be decimated if we were relegated and had a good season the following year. In fact, most clubs get bigger crowds in the third tier if they're doing well than they did when they were relegated.

If you’re not old enough to have lived through the sale of Toshack, it’s easy to underestimate the impact it had. Looking back at in now, I’d say it was the moment when a lot of the older supporters worst fears about the club were realised - they thought all along that Toshack would be sold and they were proved right. Contrasting that, I was only fifteen at the time and still had the naivety of youth - I still do in a way because I believe the sale was inevitable but it should have been delayed until the end of 70/71 season.

At the time, we were a bigger club than Luton Town in terms of gates and potential (I’d say we still are today), but Luton made a conscious decision to hold on to their young goalscorer Malcolm McDonald until the end of 70/71. Now, I could make an argument on either side as to who was the better player out of the two, but if you asked Toshack and McDonald to show you their medals from their club careers, there’s no doubting that the ex City man has the more impressive collection.

However, by selling Toshack in November 1970, City got £110,000 and by selling McDonald in the summer of 1971, Luton got £180,000 for McDonald and that isn’t an accurate reflection of the relative abilities of the two players at that time.

So, City were not just perceived as being willing to sell, they were seen as eager to sell as those misgivings of the older fan base were realised. People generally stuck with the club for the rest of that season and the early games of 71/72, but it soon became obvious that the team was a shadow of its former self and that the sale of Toshack had not benefited the club on the pitch. With the team in sharp decline and Toshack’s replacement Alan Warboys mirroring this, it’s understandable that gatesdropped so drastically.


It was during this period that I began thinking that City would average about 25,000 if they ever became an established First Division club and I stuck with that opinion until I was proved wrong in 18/19 in the Premier League. We’d get crowds like that again if we were ever promoted again and they might be bigger again if the stadium was expanded., but you give any set of supporters the sort of dull and unsuccessful garbage that City home fans have had to watch since the grounds reopened in 21/22 and it’s obvious less are going to attend.

I agree with you, if we were to get relegated and this led to better results and more enjoyable football, you’d see crowds getting over the 20,000 mark and maybe higher.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Looking at the national league- many of our 90s and 00s rivals in it

If you’re not old enough to have lived through the sale of Toshack, it’s easy to underestimate the impact it had. Looking back at in now, I’d say it was the moment when a lot of the older supporters worst fears about the club were realised - they thought all along that Toshack would be sold and they were proved right. Contrasting that, I was only fifteen at the time and still had the naivety of youth - I still do in a way because I believe the sale was inevitable but it should have been delayed until the end of 70/71 season.

At the time, we were a bigger club than Luton Town in terms of gates and potential (I’d say we still are today), but Luton made a conscious decision to hold on to their young goalscorer Malcolm McDonald until the end of 70/71. Now, I could make an argument on either side as to who was the better player out of the two, but if you asked Toshack and McDonald to show you their medals from their club careers, there’s no doubting that the ex City man has the more impressive collection.

However, by selling Toshack in November 1970, City got £110,000 and by selling McDonald in the summer of 1971, Luton got £180,000 for McDonald and that isn’t an accurate reflection of the relative abilities of the two players at that time.

So, City were not just perceived as being willing to sell, they were seen as eager to sell as those misgivings of the older fan base were realised. People generally stuck with the club for the rest of that season and the early games of 71/72, but it soon became obvious that the team was a shadow of its former self and that the sale of Toshack had not benefited the club on the pitch. With the team in sharp decline and Toshack’s replacement Alan Warboys mirroring this, it’s understandable that gatesdropped so drastically.


It was during this period that I began thinking that City would average about 25,000 if they ever became an established First Division club and I stuck with that opinion until I was proved wrong in 18/19 in the Premier League. We’d get crowds like that again if we were ever promoted again and they might be bigger again if the stadium was expanded., but you give any set of supporters the sort of dull and unsuccessful garbage that City home fans have had to watch since the grounds reopened in 21/22 and it’s obvious less are going to attend.

I agree with you, if we were to get relegated and this led to better results and more enjoyable football, you’d see crowds getting over the 20,000 mark and maybe higher.

No chance

We would get far lower away support than we have in the Championship

Leeds , Swansea , Bristol City , Birmingham , Sunderland , West Brom , Coventry , Leicester , Ipswich have boosted our gates by at least 1500 on the occasions they have visited both our home attendance and away team numbers would drop

Cardiff City fans are incredibly fickle .....always have been

We like the big games .....no problem getting big crowds once in a while .....but a relegation to league one would see a big decline in gates , and the quality of football will be just one of the excuses not to attend

When we were in the basement last time we would get an occasional big crowd .....Burnley, Shrewsbury .....but the rest of the season would be poor

In fact sides like Plymouth had far better support than us at the same level , even Bristol Rovers

[Rock_Flock_of_Five]

Re: Looking at the national league- many of our 90s and 00s rivals in it

No chance

We would get far lower away support than we have in the Championship

Leeds , Swansea , Bristol City , Birmingham , Sunderland , West Brom , Coventry , Leicester , Ipswich have boosted our gates by at least 1500 on the occasions they have visited both our home attendance and away team numbers would drop

Cardiff City fans are incredibly fickle .....always have been

We like the big games .....no problem getting big crowds once in a while .....but a relegation to league one would see a big decline in gates , and the quality of football will be just one of the excuses not to attend

When we were in the basement last time we would get an occasional big crowd .....Burnley, Shrewsbury .....but the rest of the season would be poor

In fact sides like Plymouth had far better support than us at the same level , even Bristol Rovers

Bristol Rovers, not just better, but FAR better, you say?
Not in my lifetime supporting the City since the early seventies.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Looking at the national league- many of our 90s and 00s rivals in it

No chance

We would get far lower away support than we have in the Championship

Leeds , Swansea , Bristol City , Birmingham , Sunderland , West Brom , Coventry , Leicester , Ipswich have boosted our gates by at least 1500 on the occasions they have visited both our home attendance and away team numbers would drop

Cardiff City fans are incredibly fickle .....always have been

We like the big games .....no problem getting big crowds once in a while .....but a relegation to league one would see a big decline in gates , and the quality of football will be just one of the excuses not to attend

When we were in the basement last time we would get an occasional big crowd .....Burnley, Shrewsbury .....but the rest of the season would be poor

In fact sides like Plymouth had far better support than us at the same level , even Bristol Rovers

You're stuck in the eighties though Sludge, just like I was stuck in the early seventies when I used to say we'd average 25,000 in the old First Division. The difference between us is that while I'm prepared to recognise my mistake, you aren't. To be fair, a reason you can't is that you do not have the precedent to draw on that I do - I was proved wrong when we averaged 30,000 plus while getting relegated in 18/19 and there were some games where the gates could have been higher if the ground was big enough. We've not played in the lower divisions for twenty one years and so it's hard to know for sure what attendances would be, but precedents from the time you like to refer to show that our gates increased in the third tier after a relegation.

For example, we averaged 9,143 in getting relegated from the old Second Division in 74/75 and 11,702 in being promoted from the third tier a year later. In 81/82, we went down to Division Three with average crowds of 5,574 and were promoted twelve months later averaging 7,036. Of course, when our relegation from the second division was followed by another one to the Fourth like it was in 84/85 and 85/86 crowds fell by a third, but they rose by more when we were promoted to the third tier in 87/88 - in fact, our average when being relegated from the second tier in 84/85 (4,363) was twenty seven fewer than we averaged in getting promoted from Division Four in 87/88.

The overwhelming conclusion to be drawn from this is that in the era your opinions are based on, crowds increased following relegations if they were quickly followed by better results and, inevitably, more enjoyable football. I see no reason to believe this has changed in an era where football is much better attended than it was then and an increase in gate size of around twenty five per cent following a season when a club has been relegated is to be expected if they are doing well at the lower level.

Your opinions were formed at the time when gates were, generally speaking, as low as they've ever been in my lifetime - it's different now, for a start you get far more women and families going now than you did forty years ago when you had a Government and media that despised and demonised those who went to football matches.

https://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/nav/attnengleague.htm

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Looking at the national league- many of our 90s and 00s rivals in it

You're stuck in the eighties though Sludge, just like I was stuck in the early seventies when I used to say we'd average 25,000 in the old First Division. The difference between us is that while I'm prepared to recognise my mistake, you aren't. To be fair, a reason you can't is that you do not have the precedent to draw on that I do - I was proved wrong when we averaged 30,000 plus while getting relegated in 18/19 and there were some games where the gates could have been higher if the ground was big enough. We've not played in the lower divisions for twenty one years and so it's hard to know for sure what attendances would be, but precedents from the time you like to refer to show that our gates increased in the third tier after a relegation.

For example, we averaged 9,143 in getting relegated from the old Second Division in 74/75 and 11,702 in being promoted from the third tier a year later. In 81/82, we went down to Division Three with average crowds of 5,574 and were promoted twelve months later averaging 7,036. Of course, when our relegation from the second division was followed by another one to the Fourth like it was in 84/85 and 85/86 crowds fell by a third, but they rose by more when we were promoted to the third tier in 87/88 - in fact, our average when being relegated from the second tier in 84/85 (4,363) was twenty seven fewer than we averaged in getting promoted from Division Four in 87/88.

The overwhelming conclusion to be drawn from this is that in the era your opinions are based on, crowds increased following relegations if they were quickly followed by better results and, inevitably, more enjoyable football. I see no reason to believe this has changed in an era where football is much better attended than it was then and an increase in gate size of around twenty five per cent following a season when a club has been relegated is to be expected if they are doing well at the lower level.

Your opinions were formed at the time when gates were, generally speaking, as low as they've ever been in my lifetime - it's different now, for a start you get far more women and families going now than you did forty years ago when you had a Government and media that despised and demonised those who went to football matches.

https://www.european-football-statis...nengleague.htm

We are a statistical outlier

Even when Rick Wright had his amazing deals on we won 4 on the trot played the fifth game and had a lower crowd than the previous two

Only at Cardiff City

[Des Parrot]

Re: Looking at the national league- many of our 90s and 00s rivals in it

Even down to Nat League south

I have just got my tickets for Bath FC V Torquay

Torquay entered administration this week

When people moan on here, it makes me smile, as things are not that bad

Plus: Aldershot, Rochdale & Kidderminster

Next level down:

Torquay, Yeovil, Hereford, Maidstone, Scarboro, Darlington, Scunthorpe, Chester, Boston, Southport
Rushden are still around somewhere as are Macclesfield & Bury
Probably others I’ve missed!

[Nobody's Rep]

Re: Looking at the national league- many of our 90s and 00s rivals in it

It's an interesting stat that, whenever we have dropped into the third tier, we've had better crowds when we've been going for promotion from the third tier than we did in being relegated.

I'd be interested to know why our crowds in the early 1970s halved from 1971 to 1973. It must have been more than just selling Toshack, more like going from a side that finished 3rd and just missed out on promotion, to a side avoiding relegation for a couple of seasons. The 70s and 80s were also a period of decline in attendances. Wolves went from an average of nearly 26k in 1980 to 4k in the third division 6 seasons later, yet had 14k in the same division 3 years later when they won it. I don't think it helped us that we were relegated at a time when the game across the UK was in such decline and our hooligan issues won't have encouraged others.

Our crowds have been more consistent over the last decade or so than probably at any other time in our history. We know we can virtually sell out our ground in the Premier League. Give us a season of decent football and challenging properly for the playoffs and we'll get well over 20k. There's not a shred of evidence to suggest our crowds would be decimated if we were relegated and had a good season the following year. In fact, most clubs get bigger crowds in the third tier if they're doing well than they did when they were relegated.

In relation to the bit around challenging for the playoffs the season we got promoted to the prem under Warnock only 8 times we exceeded 20k for games - most of which you would expect - villa wolves Bristol Leeds Fulham and then Burton as it was a bank holiday and forest which was towards the end and then the final day against reading when we exceeded 30k for the first time that season

Most of the other times it was between 16 and 18 for a season when we always in the hunt following a good recovery the previous season when Warnock came in

Not sure what damage the last three seasons have done but still feel we are 16-18k club which increase slightly when sustained performance in the championship

[rich munn]

Re: Looking at the national league- many of our 90s and 00s rivals in it

An article in the Times today picks out 2 clubs as having a particularly mediocre record in the Championship -

Sunderland and Bristol City.