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  • #91
    Re: Bitcoin update.

    Originally posted by lardy View Post
    But why are people buying, selling and trading?

    Imagine if you bought one bitcoin for £1,000 and you knew that it would still cost £1,000 in five years (hypothetical, ignoring inflation, etc). How much interest would there be in buying it today?

    Probably very little. Most people only want it because they think it'll go up in value, and the only way that happens is if more new buyers increase demand.

    That's the similarity with the Ponzi. When new buyers 'run out' the value drops as there's nothing to sustain it, which I think we're seeing now.

    Like I said, I'm not shitting on it. Bitcoin will have an upward trend again.
    But bitcoin has a purpose beyond speculation. In fact its entire purpose exists beyond speculation. If the project succeeds it will eliminate money laundering and fraud. It will do away with banks. Credit card fees will be a thing of the past, as will credit cards. It is not a ponzi scheme. It might be a bubble, but that is not the same as a Ponzi scheme.

    But the underlying concept is excellent. The purpose was not to create an asset that people could speculate on, it was to fix a systemic problem. And blockchain can really do that. Crypto is using the blockchain to transfer value, but blockchain is increasingly being used to transfer assets directly as well through NFTs. Getting your head around swapping fiat currency for crypto takes quite a big step; getting your head around swapping crypto for the "ownership" of (for example) an image through an NFT takes a massive leap. And honestly, I've not made it yet. I had a small part to play in the creation of some NFTs recently but it does feel like something of a lottery as to what will blow up and what will whimper. For example would someone on here be willing to pay money to "own" this board's Bale sell-on clause post? Hockey, basketball etc cards go for MILLIONS of dollars and on the face of it they are just valueless pieces of card that have no utility - is it any more ridiculous that ownership of digital versions of these things could go for huge sums too? So you could have a blockchain-based panini album in future. It rather lacks the social benefits of trading physical cards in the playground, but this time the big kid can't nick them because you can prove they are yours. A trivial example maybe, but you can quite easily see how something like this could revolutionise the music industry (again).

    I'm really struggling to get my head around the many and various use cases for blockchain, and in particular the taxation of cryptos and NFTs which is where I have a professional interest. But fundamentally - the concept of blockchain is absolutely brilliant and I really hope we do manage to make use of it as a society.

    Comment


    • #92
      Re: Bitcoin update.

      Originally posted by lardy View Post
      Same reasons I gave when I replied to you about Tesla earlier.
      But what makes the price of those assets go up and down? You claimed earlier that it 'moves on company profits', how do you think that works for stocks that don't pay a dividend?

      You can own a share of something profitable but if there is no dividend and there are more sellers than buyers where would its value trend to?

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: Bitcoin update.

        Originally posted by Eric Cartman View Post
        But what makes the price of those assets go up and down? You claimed earlier that it 'moves on company profits', how do you think that works for stocks that don't pay a dividend?

        You can own a share of something profitable but if there is no dividend and there are more sellers than buyers where would its value trend to?
        Company profits was one example of external factors, I also said "etc".

        Amazon and Google are two massively successful companies. Has that got anything to do with their stock price rising? Of course.

        I can't really tell you more than that about what makes stocks go up or down, unfortunately. If I could I'd be the richest man in the world.

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: Bitcoin update.

          Just like to say , I havent got a clue when it comes to Bitcoin etc . This thread has prised my eyes open ever so slightly .
          The discussions are interesting and informative.
          Thanks x

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: Bitcoin update.

            Originally posted by lardy View Post
            Company profits was one example of external factors, I also said "etc".

            Amazon and Google are two massively successful companies. Has that got anything to do with their stock price rising? Of course.

            I can't really tell you more than that about what makes stocks go up or down, unfortunately. If I could I'd be the richest man in the world.
            I don't think we are on the same page here.

            If you buy Amazon stock today, assuming that they don't suddenly decide to pay a dividend what will make it worth more or less in 2 years time? Current success/size of the company is already priced in, you don't share in the profit/success of the company anyway. News has an indirect effect on price because it makes people buy/sell it (exactly the same as bitcoin - see news from China and eco concerns this week and the effect on price) but the only the direct factor influencing the price of Amazon or Google stock is the amount being bought and sold.

            Comment


            • #96
              Re: Bitcoin update.

              Originally posted by Optimistic Nick View Post
              But bitcoin has a purpose beyond speculation. In fact its entire purpose exists beyond speculation. If the project succeeds it will eliminate money laundering and fraud. It will do away with banks. Credit card fees will be a thing of the past, as will credit cards. It is not a ponzi scheme. It might be a bubble, but that is not the same as a Ponzi scheme.

              But the underlying concept is excellent. The purpose was not to create an asset that people could speculate on, it was to fix a systemic problem. And blockchain can really do that. Crypto is using the blockchain to transfer value, but blockchain is increasingly being used to transfer assets directly as well through NFTs. Getting your head around swapping fiat currency for crypto takes quite a big step; getting your head around swapping crypto for the "ownership" of (for example) an image through an NFT takes a massive leap. And honestly, I've not made it yet. I had a small part to play in the creation of some NFTs recently but it does feel like something of a lottery as to what will blow up and what will whimper. For example would someone on here be willing to pay money to "own" this board's Bale sell-on clause post? Hockey, basketball etc cards go for MILLIONS of dollars and on the face of it they are just valueless pieces of card that have no utility - is it any more ridiculous that ownership of digital versions of these things could go for huge sums too? So you could have a blockchain-based panini album in future. It rather lacks the social benefits of trading physical cards in the playground, but this time the big kid can't nick them because you can prove they are yours. A trivial example maybe, but you can quite easily see how something like this could revolutionise the music industry (again).

              I'm really struggling to get my head around the many and various use cases for blockchain, and in particular the taxation of cryptos and NFTs which is where I have a professional interest. But fundamentally - the concept of blockchain is absolutely brilliant and I really hope we do manage to make use of it as a society.
              Exactly that

              There can be speculators/ponzi style investors and still have a base value to its practicality

              That's where the art lies - knowing what it's worth.

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: Bitcoin update.

                Originally posted by Optimistic Nick View Post
                But bitcoin has a purpose beyond speculation. In fact its entire purpose exists beyond speculation. If the project succeeds it will eliminate money laundering and fraud. It will do away with banks. Credit card fees will be a thing of the past, as will credit cards. It is not a ponzi scheme. It might be a bubble, but that is not the same as a Ponzi scheme.

                But the underlying concept is excellent. The purpose was not to create an asset that people could speculate on, it was to fix a systemic problem. And blockchain can really do that. Crypto is using the blockchain to transfer value, but blockchain is increasingly being used to transfer assets directly as well through NFTs. Getting your head around swapping fiat currency for crypto takes quite a big step; getting your head around swapping crypto for the "ownership" of (for example) an image through an NFT takes a massive leap. And honestly, I've not made it yet. I had a small part to play in the creation of some NFTs recently but it does feel like something of a lottery as to what will blow up and what will whimper. For example would someone on here be willing to pay money to "own" this board's Bale sell-on clause post? Hockey, basketball etc cards go for MILLIONS of dollars and on the face of it they are just valueless pieces of card that have no utility - is it any more ridiculous that ownership of digital versions of these things could go for huge sums too? So you could have a blockchain-based panini album in future. It rather lacks the social benefits of trading physical cards in the playground, but this time the big kid can't nick them because you can prove they are yours. A trivial example maybe, but you can quite easily see how something like this could revolutionise the music industry (again).

                I'm really struggling to get my head around the many and various use cases for blockchain, and in particular the taxation of cryptos and NFTs which is where I have a professional interest. But fundamentally - the concept of blockchain is absolutely brilliant and I really hope we do manage to make use of it as a society.
                Great Post!

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: Bitcoin update.

                  people miss the point of crypto, there is no central bank. whether it is limited or unlimited it will always have a value as funds can be shifted from one place to another outside of government control

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: Bitcoin update.

                    Originally posted by AlwaysAway2 View Post
                    It's not too late.
                    Buy a fraction of a bitcoin.
                    Just with what you can afford to lose.

                    Download a bread wallet.
                    Buy some.
                    Hold it and check what it's worth each month.

                    Remember .......Not your keys. Not your coins.

                    Keep your words safe on paper and never lose them. If someone finds your words (keys) they have your Bitcoin.

                    It's not too late.
                    Any updates regarding bitcoin is it true prices have plummeted?
                    Good time to invest?
                    How do you buy?

                    Comment


                    • Re: Bitcoin update.

                      Originally posted by stan butler View Post
                      Any updates regarding bitcoin is it true prices have plummeted?
                      Good time to invest?
                      How do you buy?
                      It is indeed true, prices have plummeted.

                      There are a number of reasons that contributed to the sharp fall -

                      China announced a ban on all Bitcoin mining (a huge % of Bitcoin is mined there), this alone had a big impact on the price. Other factors were some major banks were refusing to send customers' money to known crypto exchanges. Added to this, Binance, the biggest crypto exchange in the world, came under scrutiny for some of its practices. Further to this, USDT, which is a stable coin that many people use to buy Bitcoin with, was also subject to allegations against it. All of this negative news came together within a short space of time.
                      Then you have the 'whales' ... these are large holders of a cryptocurrency (often professional traders) manipulating the market. They purposely drive down the price and hope that the likes of you and I will panic and sell off our holdings, which the whales snap up at a low price.

                      Unfortunately, this kind of 'bloodbath comes with the territory in the world of crypto. It will bounce back, as it always does. As an investor, you just need to hold steady and not panic sell.

                      If you are interested in buying while prices are relatively low, you could do what I did - send your money to 'Coinbase' and buy Bitcoin there. If the coin you want is not listed on Coinbase (they are quite limited) then send your Bitcoin/Litecoin or whatever from Coinbase to somewhere like Binance, where they have almost every crypto under the sun.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Bitcoin update.

                        Originally posted by stan butler View Post
                        Any updates regarding bitcoin is it true prices have plummeted?
                        Good time to invest?
                        How do you buy?
                        It's a good time to start mining!

                        My guess (on nothing other than my finger in the air) is it'll finish 2021 higher than it was end of 2020.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Bitcoin update.

                          Originally posted by OurManFlint II View Post
                          It's a good time to start mining!

                          My guess (on nothing other than my finger in the air) is it'll finish 2021 higher than it was end of 2020.
                          How do you purchase bitcoin?

                          Comment


                          • Re: Bitcoin update.

                            Originally posted by stan butler View Post
                            How do you purchase bitcoin?
                            Open a wallet first, blockchain.com for example. You'll probably have to do the KYC stuff then most let you purchase using standard debitcards or bank transfer. Alternatively you can find a BTC ATM if you have cash, feed the cash and get the bitcoin.

                            loads of different exchanges available to buy and send to your wallet. If you are buying a lot, it might be worth looking at a cold storage wallet, effectively a USB plug in.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Bitcoin update.

                              Originally posted by Rock_Flock_of_Five View Post
                              It will bounce back, as it always does. As an investor, you just need to hold steady and not panic sell.
                              Steady on there. Not everything bounces back. Although I suspect you are probably right in the medium term, the wall of governmental pressure is going to have an impact at some point and Bitcoin is a relatively limited currency. These things do have a function and there are coins that function better than bitcoin. At some point the value will be placed in that utility and who knows? Bitcoin may find itself a long way down the pecking order. And let's be honest, a lot of these currencies won't actually survive.

                              Comment


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