New owners ?

[life on mars]

Re: New owners ?

If the assembled squad starts getting hammered 5-0 every game, as is quite a possibility to be frank and realistic, then it won’t take Sri Vincent Tan long to start losing most of his considerable investment.

He’s not daft, so what’s happening here ?

Is he perhaps balancing the books as much as possible and minimising further investment because he’s already agreed a deal with someone. I know that a big deal on this fell over a little while back, so maybe this explains recent developments?

Why would we get hammered 5 nil ,we have a decent squad ,he's been a great backer .

I'd only sell to Bale if he wears the vacant number 9 shirt ?

[cardiff55]

Re: New owners ?

Our staring line up next week, based on what I saw in the friendlies should be:

Smithies, Ng, Morrison, Flint, Nelson, Bagan, Bacuna, Pack, Ralls, Giles, Collins. Subs: Phillips, McGuinness, Brown, Wintle , Vaulks, Moore, Harris.

So only Bagan will be the inexperienced one.

[Allez Allez Allez]

Re: New owners ?

So the question is why do billionaires invest in football teams? I'm sure they expect to lose money, but they must get benefits of other sorts - whether it's vanity, prestige, profile, or commercial benefits for their other companies, I don't know. But there must be something other than money, as there are more solid financial investments around.

If you ask 100 billionaires, you may get 100 reasons.

Some will, undoubtedly, do it because they love the game.
Some, may allegedly, do it to avoid getting killed by the leader of Russia.

Most will do it, partly, because of ego. I think Tan falls into that category but I think he also has an appreciation that he is doing something good and bringing joy to thousands.

If you go back to the pre-Premier-League era, most clubs were owned by people who "loved" the game, but were "hard-nosed" businessmen who could see that spending big money chasing success was a sure path to ruin. These guys were car salesmen, travel agents, shop owners, and not very wealthy.

Then, along comes Jack Walker - the first to be called a "benefactor" although that title was also given to Rick Wright who had less deep pockets. He was the first to really not expect a return for his investment other than seeing his beloved club winning things it could never have won without his money.

People like Kumar and Cadman did, I think, understand that there was a pot of gold to be had and tried to get it as cheaply as possible. Another way to ruin in an age where there were now more benefactors than owners.

We are still in that age, which is why I don't think it is unreasonable for Tan to think of life beyond Cardiff City, nor for us to think of life beyond Tan.

[RonnieBird]

Re: New owners ?

Relying on "I was right once, so I might be again" is a bit feeble isn't it?

Saying something like "If the assembled squad starts getting hammered 5-0 every game" could be taken as just a way to get across the notion that we're going to struggle, but then you qualify it with "as is quite a possibility to be frank and realistic" takes it onto a different level. What you say could legitimately be called frank, but realistic? No chance! Tell you what, if and when we've lost our tenth consecutive match 5-0 this autumn, I'll join all of the others on here in hailing you as a genius - you can't say fairer than that!

You've posted some strange stuff in recent weeks - you advocate us paying £12 million or whatever it was for Harry Wilson and then casually declare we should sell Gavin Whyte because he's not good enough. You seem oblivious to the facts - for most Football League clubs (i.e. those not in receipt of parachute payments), paying fees for players is on hold for a while and, if they are one of the few able to do so, I'm sure they're looking to spend what little they do have on better than Gavin Whyte. As for Wilson, you really expect the man who is, reportedly, putting £3 million a month into the club to fork out four times that on a player? Understandably, Vincent Tan has decided the club (i.e. him) has to cut down on the transfer spending and, anyway, even if we were able to match Fulham's offer for the player, I'd say it's very doubtful he'd opt for us having had experience of the "Cardiff way" last season.

No, that’s really not what I said, is it ?
In fact I pointed out that spotting something unlikely once doesn’t mean you’ll get it right next time.

Look , we’ve got some excellent prospects in this squad and it MIGHT all gel together but it’s not professional to rely on that without a plan B. There’s a limit to how many new players you can use without losing all continuity even if they were all seasoned pros who are definitely comfortable at this level, and we ARE pushing that.

Now ,my whole point is that IF that starts going wrong, then there’s no way to do anything till January. Had we held on to Sol, Junior etc then there’d have been a parachute, but we haven’t.

You and I have entirely different philosophies on football. This I’ve noticed.

I don’t disrespect your position in any way but I take a different view. I see no reason whatsoever why we can’t be Liverpool or Tottenham and we should have been building toward that over the last 40 years. It means we can never be satisfied with second best, even if through practicality we sometimes have to temporarily put up with it to some extent.

We had the chance to consolidate two years ago then a squad last year which should have challenged for promotion, but it was wasted. Unfortunate but can’t be helped now. You’ve seen me post that Sri Vincent Tan has been marvellous ,that I don’t expect him to produce endless money and that we must of needs be tighten our belts, BUT unless we’re just going to shut the doors there must be some investment to keep going.We NEED a creative player to draw this makeshift squad together, hence my Harry Wilson comments.

Hasn’t got to be him and IF Lee Tomlin was definitely fit , he’d do just as well. Could be someone else altogether who’d be much cheaper, but if there’s no one like that available we can’t just chuck a youngster or league one player ( no matter how promising) out onto the field and hope for the best. Even on reduced budgets and in hard times we NEED a reliable spine which will keep us going.

I’m not predicting a meltdown and certainly not wanting one, but rather taking the possibility into account and pleading with the club not to leave us with our arses hanging out in one very possible course of events. Let me be frank - that’s plain ****ing STUPID, and we should expect a more intelligent analysis of possible problems from a professional football manager.

[delmbox]

Re: New owners ?

Is that fair on his dad, who had exactly the same name ?

So desperate to pick a fight he's resorted to this :hehe:

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: New owners ?

I take no pleasure whatever in recalling the evening of the Emiliano Sala tragedy.
I noticed a French newspaper report of a missing plane en route from Nantes to Wales. Unusual route and knowing that the poor young man was travelling overnight I followed up and was reluctantly convinced VERY early what had happened and to whom.

I posted it sometime between 10pm and midnight on *****’ forum and if it still exists you can probably see the disbelieving and quite nasty tirade I received, which went on for about 24 hours until the dreadful truth emerged.

Point being not that I’m claiming some brilliant insight but that it’s very possible for an apparently unlikely truth to be picked up on correctly. Now I don’t either, for one moment, claim that my speculation on this matter is correct, but I thought Taunton , of all people, would know that a majority of opinion on a factual matter is no indication whatsoever that they have it right.

So you still reckon we will suffer a sequence of 5-0 defeats?

[RonnieBird]

Re: New owners ?

No. I didn’t ever say that.
I said we risk a slide which we couldn’t fix unless we’ve got a plan B.

Anyone can go unexpectedly into a spin but so many new and untested players is POSSIBLY increasing this risk. Difference is that we should have retained a strong spine and some old hands such as Sol whom we might not expect to play normally but COULD step in to “settle the horses”.

It’s only common sense and unless I’m wrong I think you’re perfectly intelligent enough to grasp what I’ve said without rearranging the words into something to argue the toss about.

[Rjk]

Re: New owners ?

No. I didn’t ever say that.
I said we risk a slide which we couldn’t fix unless we’ve got a plan B.

Anyone can go unexpectedly into a spin but so many new and untested players is POSSIBLY increasing this risk. Difference is that we should have retained a strong spine and some old hands such as Sol whom we might not expect to play normally but COULD step in to “settle the horses”.

It’s only common sense and unless I’m wrong I think you’re perfectly intelligent enough to grasp what I’ve said without rearranging the words into something to argue the toss about.

we have plenty of old hands still, we had the oldest squad in the division not too long ago, if we hadn't started to take steps to bring more youth through we would have ended in disaster.

if we had kept some of those older guys then that gives us even less opportunity to bring through the younger ones, then in a years time when the old guys are even older, more injury prone, declined ability even more and we have to play someone else the young prospects have no experience and will have stagnated for another year. meaning we would have to try to being in more experience, which comes at a cost.

[jon1959]

Re: New owners ?

No. I didn’t ever say that.
I said we risk a slide which we couldn’t fix unless we’ve got a plan B.

Anyone can go unexpectedly into a spin but so many new and untested players is POSSIBLY increasing this risk. Difference is that we should have retained a strong spine and some old hands such as Sol whom we might not expect to play normally but COULD step in to “settle the horses”.

It’s only common sense and unless I’m wrong I think you’re perfectly intelligent enough to grasp what I’ve said without rearranging the words into something to argue the toss about.

We have 'retained a strong spine'.

We have got 'old hands'. Not as old as last season, but old enough.

Wilson is a loss, as are (in my opinion) Ojo and Bennett. Hoilett, Williams, Osei-Tutu and Bamba hardly contributed last season. If he proves his fitness, I would not be surprised to see Bennett get another contract (on the club's terms, not his agent's).

Collins and Giles look like excellent signings. Just what we need. McGuinness looks promising. Wintle more of an unknown quantity but his record at Crewe (and Crewe's record of producing top players over decades) is also very promising.

We have a clutch of younger players who broke through last season, and another four given shirt numbers this summer - with maybe four or five on top of that given first team match time in pre-season. From all I have seen and read from posters who have watched the u18s and u23s in recent times I am looking forward to Ratcliffe, Bowen, Evans and Davies establishing themselves in the squad like Colwill, Bagan and the others - with one or two becoming regular starters.

If after all that we still need another Plan B - there are more free agents knocking around this summer than in living memory.

I would love us to win the league, but if this is a year of consolidation and blooding a group of quality youth players, that is fine. We can't always have everything all at once. By accident (of finances) or design (we have a plan!) the club seem to have finally created that pathway from the Academy to the first team. Overdue but welcome!

And of course, Bale is due any day soon!

[RonnieBird]

Re: New owners ?

Very good post Jon.
I’d agree with 90% of that.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: New owners ?

No, that’s really not what I said, is it ?
In fact I pointed out that spotting something unlikely once doesn’t mean you’ll get it right next time.

Look , we’ve got some excellent prospects in this squad and it MIGHT all gel together but it’s not professional to rely on that without a plan B. There’s a limit to how many new players you can use without losing all continuity even if they were all seasoned pros who are definitely comfortable at this level, and we ARE pushing that.

Now ,my whole point is that IF that starts going wrong, then there’s no way to do anything till January. Had we held on to Sol, Junior etc then there’d have been a parachute, but we haven’t.

You and I have entirely different philosophies on football. This I’ve noticed.

I don’t disrespect your position in any way but I take a different view. I see no reason whatsoever why we can’t be Liverpool or Tottenham and we should have been building toward that over the last 40 years. It means we can never be satisfied with second best, even if through practicality we sometimes have to temporarily put up with it to some extent.

We had the chance to consolidate two years ago then a squad last year which should have challenged for promotion, but it was wasted. Unfortunate but can’t be helped now. You’ve seen me post that Sri Vincent Tan has been marvellous ,that I don’t expect him to produce endless money and that we must of needs be tighten our belts, BUT unless we’re just going to shut the doors there must be some investment to keep going.We NEED a creative player to draw this makeshift squad together, hence my Harry Wilson comments.

Hasn’t got to be him and IF Lee Tomlin was definitely fit , he’d do just as well. Could be someone else altogether who’d be much cheaper, but if there’s no one like that available we can’t just chuck a youngster or league one player ( no matter how promising) out onto the field and hope for the best. Even on reduced budgets and in hard times we NEED a reliable spine which will keep us going.

I’m not predicting a meltdown and certainly not wanting one, but rather taking the possibility into account and pleading with the club not to leave us with our arses hanging out in one very possible course of events. Let me be frank - that’s plain ****ing STUPID, and we should expect a more intelligent analysis of possible problems from a professional football manager.

I think you're right about us having a different philosophies on the game, but I think you may be misunderstanding me concerning my attitude towards younger players at the club through the last decade or so. I've always believed that any young player has to earn their place in the side, not just be presented with one because they came through the Academy. My concern is that, almost entirely, young players have not even been part of the conversation when it comes to first team selection for nigh on a decade.

Instead, in the past whenever a vacancy, like the current one at left wing back, has cropped up at Cardiff since Dave Jones' days, the attitude has always been okay, lets go and buy someone. That someone has often been nothing special, overpriced and, more often than not, with no sell on value.

The policy has worked to the extent that we've been promoted twice, but it seems to me that the net position we find ourselves in under Vincent Tan's time in charge is slightly worse off on the pitch, an extension to the Ninian Stand added, an Academy which has not been serving its purpose and debt levels that are far higher, although not as threatening, as they were under Peter Ridsdale. It's not surprising in the slightest that Vincent Tan has decided to cut back on the football budget at a time when the parachute payments have stopped and gate receipts have declined.

Like others, I think you're over dramatising things. As has been pointed out by Cardiff 55 and myself, the only young players likely to start on Saturday are Bagan and Giles - the first of whom acquitted himself well in the senior matches he played last season, while Giles, seemingly, had plenty of Championship teams interested in taking him on loan following forty three appearances at this level in 20/21.

That hardly represents the sort of complete overhaul you are claiming. All that has happened is that we've, thankfully, become like most other clubs in having a nucleus of home produced young players who will come into consideration for first team selection if needs be and we've started doing what most other Championship clubs have been doing for years - occasionally recruiting from levels below us, rather than nearly always looking to the Premiership or Championship if there's a gap to be filled which cannot be done so by a youngster already at the club.

[dml1954]

Re: New owners ?

I think you're right about us having a different philosophies on the game, but I think you may be misunderstanding me concerning my attitude towards younger players at the club through the last decade or so. I've always believed that any young player has to earn their place in the side, not just be presented with one because they came through the Academy. My concern is that, almost entirely, young players have not even been part of the conversation when it comes to first team selection for nigh on a decade.

Instead, in the past whenever a vacancy, like the current one at left wing back, has cropped up at Cardiff since Dave Jones' days, the attitude has always been okay, lets go and buy someone. That someone has often been nothing special, overpriced and, more often than not, with no sell on value.

The policy has worked to the extent that we've been promoted twice, but it seems to me that the net position we find ourselves in under Vincent Tan's time in charge is slightly worse off on the pitch, an extension to the Ninian Stand added, an Academy which has not been serving its purpose and debt levels that are far higher, although not as threatening, as they were under Peter Ridsdale. It's not surprising in the slightest that Vincent Tan has decided to cut back on the football budget at a time when the parachute payments have stopped and gate receipts have declined.

Like others, I think you're over dramatising things. As has been pointed out by Cardiff 55 and myself, the only young players likely to start on Saturday are Bagan and Giles - the first of whom acquitted himself well in the senior matches he played last season, while Giles, seemingly, had plenty of Championship teams interested in taking him on loan following forty three appearances at this level in 20/21.

That hardly represents the sort of complete overhaul you are claiming. All that has happened is that we've, thankfully, become like most other clubs in having a nucleus of home produced young players who will come into consideration for first team selection if needs be and we've started doing what most other Championship clubs have been doing for years - occasionally recruiting from levels below us, rather than nearly always looking to the Premiership or Championship if there's a gap to be filled which cannot be done so by a youngster already at the club.

Your summary of Vincent Tans reign is just plain wrong. Everything about the club is better, including the stadium, training and back up facilities (now one of the best in the country). The vast majority (if not all) of our debt is to Tan and the club own the stadium outright. A large part of his debt has also been converted to equity and the remainder will be when financial conditions allow. Prior to his reign we were up to our eyeballs in debt to numerous parties (including the council, HMRC and various banks) and on the verge of bankruptcy. We have been in the Premier League twice and challenging at the top of the Championship for a continuous period of over 11 years. OK the team currently is not as strong as some in the past but every team has to continuously evolve and be rebuilt. The fact that young players are also being brought through now is another indication that things are being done correctly.
You just don't like Tan, never have and wont be happy until he leaves. God help us if he does is what I say.

[surge]

Re: New owners ?

Your summary of Vincent Tans reign is just plain wrong. Everything about the club is better, including the stadium, training and back up facilities (now one of the best in the country). The vast majority (if not all) of our debt is to Tan and the club own the stadium outright. A large part of his debt has also been converted to equity and the remainder will be when financial conditions allow. Prior to his reign we were up to our eyeballs in debt to numerous parties (including the council, HMRC and various banks) and on the verge of bankruptcy. We have been in the Premier League twice and challenging at the top of the Championship for a continuous period of over 11 years. OK the team currently is not as strong as some in the past but every team has to continuously evolve and be rebuilt. The fact that young players are also being brought through now is another indication that things are being done correctly.
You just don't like Tan, never have and wont be happy until he leaves. God help us if he does is what I say.

But are you happy with it just being better? Consider how much money Tan has put into this club and do you think better is enough or should it be much, much better?

[the other bob wilson]

Re: New owners ?

Your summary of Vincent Tans reign is just plain wrong. Everything about the club is better, including the stadium, training and back up facilities (now one of the best in the country). The vast majority (if not all) of our debt is to Tan and the club own the stadium outright. A large part of his debt has also been converted to equity and the remainder will be when financial conditions allow. Prior to his reign we were up to our eyeballs in debt to numerous parties (including the council, HMRC and various banks) and on the verge of bankruptcy. We have been in the Premier League twice and challenging at the top of the Championship for a continuous period of over 11 years. OK the team currently is not as strong as some in the past but every team has to continuously evolve and be rebuilt. The fact that young players are also being brought through now is another indication that things are being done correctly.
You just don't like Tan, never have and wont be happy until he leaves. God help us if he does is what I say.

We reached a Play OFf Final in the season before Vincent Tan formally joined the Board (09/10), so we’ve declined slightly since then if you go by last season’s finish and we’d been using the ground for a year prior to him arriving, so the only thing that’s changed there is the addition of the Ninian Stand extension. We’ve still not got the club owned training facilities our owner was talking about nine years ago at the time of the rebrand and, although I acknowledged that it isn’t as dangerous as it was then, our debt is much bigger than it was in 2010.

If you think back to the eighties and nineties, the idea that we would have a billionaire in charge one day seemed pie in the sky, yet, partly because there are so many billionaires in the game now, the advances made since 10/11 are pretty modest and I’m sure Vincent Tan would have expected a bigger and better return on his investment than he’s seen so far - you can’t blame him at all if he’s decided to rein things in this season.

[RonnieBird]

Re: New owners ?

Some excellent points on both sides of that conversation.
It would be a terrible thing if everyone agreed on every small point.