Cultural Appropriation

[delmbox]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

I think positions like this should be filled by those most qualified and talented to do so, regardless of skin colour or background.

But they're often not filled by those most qualified and talented to do so, historically with a strong bias towards white people. Which is kinda the point people are making regarding this case.

[Rjk]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

I've got no doubt that there are many instances of cultural appropriation and it has a damaging effect on the livelihoods and culture of minority groups.

I think part of the issue is with the internet these days people's culture is changing faster than ever.

I am vaguely aware of numbers of young people in the UK and USA with a genuine interests in Korean pop groups. Not my cup of tea, but each to their own.
If they grow up listening to k-pop, then some of them start to make their own music - if they do it in the style of a korean artist - or even with some Korean lyrics - is that cultural appropriation ? or is that what their culture now IS? should they instead make a different style of music they have no knowledge of or interest in?

I think if everyone was forced to "stay in their own lane" so to speak it would be even more damaging than the alternative.

As for Cheryl Cole - it does seem as though she's perhaps not the ideal choice for this podcast. I can definitely understand the frustration black artists must have when this sort of thing goes on.
On the other hand she is REALLY famous - she's not got the gig because she knows the most about R&B out of any potential presenter, but because she's a huge name, and more people will probably listen to it with her name on it. If that ends up getting people interested in R&B who wouldn't otherwise have listened then it might not be all bad.

As a middle aged white guy in the UK it is pretty hard to think of an example that is anything like the same though.

[blue lewj]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

But they're often not filled by those most qualified and talented to do so, historically with a strong bias towards white people. Which is kinda the point people are making regarding this case.

I'm not sure she has got the gig based purely on that though. I think she has it because it will get the most numbers.

Talent seems to get trumped by 'popular' people in modern culture sadly. Look at reality TV for example. Talent isn't what you'd associate with most of them.

[dembethewarrior]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

I've got no doubt that there are many instances of cultural appropriation and it has a damaging effect on the livelihoods and culture of minority groups.

I think part of the issue is with the internet these days people's culture is changing faster than ever.

I am vaguely aware of numbers of young people in the UK and USA with a genuine interests in Korean pop groups. Not my cup of tea, but each to their own.
If they grow up listening to k-pop, then some of them start to make their own music - if they do it in the style of a korean artist - or even with some Korean lyrics - is that cultural appropriation ? or is that what their culture now IS? should they instead make a different style of music they have no knowledge of or interest in?

I think if everyone was forced to "stay in their own lane" so to speak it would be even more damaging than the alternative.

As for Cheryl Cole - it does seem as though she's perhaps not the ideal choice for this podcast. I can definitely understand the frustration black artists must have when this sort of thing goes on.
On the other hand she is REALLY famous - she's not got the gig because she knows the most about R&B out of any potential presenter, but because she's a huge name, and more people will probably listen to it with her name on it. If that ends up getting people interested in R&B who wouldn't otherwise have listened then it might not be all bad.

As a middle aged white guy in the UK it is pretty hard to think of an example that is anything like the same though.

Nicely put.

[JamesWales]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

I can see how it's an issue sometimes. You wouldnt want a history of Wales to be narrated by Benedict Cumberbatch or something, so I can understand the need to be sensitive.

That said, I think generally the issue is well overblown, and is pretty divisive. If we want to live in a successful multicultural society, then we accept that these different cultural traditions will (And should!) merge.

Its absurd, stereotypical and borderline racist to say only black people should comment on certain things, or should like certain music, or should stay away from certain topics. It's ridiculous. It also says it's "denying work to people of colour etc" but every survey i have seen in recent years shows that non white British faces and voices are overrepresented. Thats no bad thing at all, but we cant keep chipping away at things on the basis of skin colour.

Another issue is the inconsistencies. The very same people saying that Cheryl Cole SHOULDNT voice a programme on RnB music will be the same people saying a black actress SHOULD play Anne Boleyn, as happened recently. Whats the rules here?!

There is a good organisation called 'dont divide us' which pushes against both this kind of division (broadly from the left) and the more traditional kind of division (broadly from the right).

Identity politics is pretty poisonous for society in my opinion and we should focus less on it. If we want a cohesive society, we need to focus more on what unites us rather than implying that the very thing we had zero control over should be our defining characteristic

[AfricanBluebird]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

I've got no doubt that there are many instances of cultural appropriation and it has a damaging effect on the livelihoods and culture of minority groups.

I think part of the issue is with the internet these days people's culture is changing faster than ever.

I am vaguely aware of numbers of young people in the UK and USA with a genuine interests in Korean pop groups. Not my cup of tea, but each to their own.
If they grow up listening to k-pop, then some of them start to make their own music - if they do it in the style of a korean artist - or even with some Korean lyrics - is that cultural appropriation ? or is that what their culture now IS? should they instead make a different style of music they have no knowledge of or interest in?

I think if everyone was forced to "stay in their own lane" so to speak it would be even more damaging than the alternative.

As for Cheryl Cole - it does seem as though she's perhaps not the ideal choice for this podcast. I can definitely understand the frustration black artists must have when this sort of thing goes on.
On the other hand she is REALLY famous - she's not got the gig because she knows the most about R&B out of any potential presenter, but because she's a huge name, and more people will probably listen to it with her name on it. If that ends up getting people interested in R&B who wouldn't otherwise have listened then it might not be all bad.

As a middle aged white guy in the UK it is pretty hard to think of an example that is anything like the same though.

Well put.

She ain't my cup of tea and I would personally prefer to listen to a podcast about R&B by someone who knows more about it and lived it, which would typically be a black person, but I haven't got particularly strong opinions on it. I do think she was chosen for her fame which is bad on one hand but on the other she can maybe reach an audience that others couldn't.

There are much bigger issues as far as I am concerned.

[Rjk]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

https://youtu.be/t_KdbASIkB8

here's a Malaysian guy commenting on Jamie Oliver making egg fried rice :hehe:

https://youtu.be/53me-ICi_f8

and another lady on the BBC making egg fried rice.

[Baloo]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

This seems really more akin to a Desert Island Discs podcast, with a famous person sharing their favourite tunes, which apparently is mostly R&B in Cheryl's case. And should probably be positioned that way.

I believe Jamz Supernova et al at Radio1Extra is the place to go for those seeking a more authentic R&B experience.

[life on mars]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

But they're often not filled by those most qualified and talented to do so, historically with a strong bias towards white people. Which is kinda the point people are making regarding this case.

Are folk saying that only black people should represent / comment on R & B or Soul as I would have though there has been many white folk who have been defined as a great soul or R&B voice or sound .

I remember in he early years Zeppelin were referred too as a white man blues sound .

Steve Marriott had a wonderful voice and guitar for the blues and R&B .

[Croesy Blue]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

https://youtu.be/t_KdbASIkB8

here's a Malaysian guy commenting on Jamie Oliver making egg fried rice :hehe:

https://youtu.be/53me-ICi_f8

and another lady on the BBC making egg fried rice.

I saw a mad one the other day where an Italian woman commented on a recipe page saying it was cultural appropriation to put chilli on spaghetti :hehe: (ignoring the fact Italians stole it from Asians in the first place I suppose!)

I think like anything these days the genuine cases where it’s happening are getting drowned out by too many people saying anything is cultural appropriation.

[Tuerto]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

I've got no doubt that there are many instances of cultural appropriation and it has a damaging effect on the livelihoods and culture of minority groups.

I think part of the issue is with the internet these days people's culture is changing faster than ever.

I am vaguely aware of numbers of young people in the UK and USA with a genuine interests in Korean pop groups. Not my cup of tea, but each to their own.
If they grow up listening to k-pop, then some of them start to make their own music - if they do it in the style of a korean artist - or even with some Korean lyrics - is that cultural appropriation ? or is that what their culture now IS? should they instead make a different style of music they have no knowledge of or interest in?

I think if everyone was forced to "stay in their own lane" so to speak it would be even more damaging than the alternative.

As for Cheryl Cole - it does seem as though she's perhaps not the ideal choice for this podcast. I can definitely understand the frustration black artists must have when this sort of thing goes on.
On the other hand she is REALLY famous - she's not got the gig because she knows the most about R&B out of any potential presenter, but because she's a huge name, and more people will probably listen to it with her name on it. If that ends up getting people interested in R&B who wouldn't otherwise have listened then it might not be all bad.

As a middle aged white guy in the UK it is pretty hard to think of an example that is anything like the same though.

I don't think that your comparison with Korean pop music is the best, in my opinion. I guess that the angle of this article is UK based, and relating to black people in this country being overlooked for jobs where they maybe best suited. Not my words, that of the article, before anyone wants to have a go.

Historically, South Koreans have not been discriminated against in the UK, or by Western Culture, not that i am aware of anyway. Although i'm sure Feedback will find something in his locker from the 11th century :hehe: So, the comparison you makeis sort of coming from an historical level playing field, it's not like white culture has had a negative effect on South Korean people in terms of progress and opportunity. To me, there has to be some historical context.

[Tuerto]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

I saw a mad one the other day where an Italian woman commented on a recipe page saying it was cultural appropriation to put chilli on spaghetti :hehe: (ignoring the fact Italians stole it from Asians in the first place I suppose!)

I think like anything these days the genuine cases where it’s happening are getting drowned out by too many people saying anything is cultural appropriation.

Yeah, stuff like that is nonsense.

[JamesWales]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

I don't think that your comparison with Korean pop music is the best, in my opinion. I guess that the angle of this article is UK based, and relating to black people in this country being overlooked for jobs where they maybe best suited. Not my words, that of the article, before anyone wants to have a go.

Historically, South Koreans have not been discriminated against in the UK, or by Western Culture, not that i am aware of anyway. Although i'm sure Feedback will find something in his locker from the 11th century :hehe: So, the comparison you makeis sort of coming from an historical level playing field, it's not like white culture has had a negative effect on South Korean people in terms of progress and opportunity. To me, there has to be some historical context.

I do see the argument in this line of thinking, but I think endlessly saying that skin colour matters so much just amplifies difference, which is the opposite to what we should be doing.

BAME people are generally over-represented on TV compared to the population, and thats fine, but it means it cant be used as an argument all the time to say they are not. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-suggests.html

It's all very messy and I think as a multicultural society we should all learn from and enjoy a variety of cultures, without guardians or political agendas deciding that it is for one or other culture based on our skin colours or where our parents happened to be born.

I just think identity politics is like a hammer slowly knocking away at a small fracture in society

[Rjk]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

I don't think that your comparison with Korean pop music is the best, in my opinion. I guess that the angle of this article is UK based, and relating to black people in this country being overlooked for jobs where they maybe best suited. Not my words, that of the article, before anyone wants to have a go.

Historically, South Koreans have not been discriminated against in the UK, or by Western Culture, not that i am aware of anyway. Although i'm sure Feedback will find something in his locker from the 11th century :hehe: So, the comparison you makeis sort of coming from an historical level playing field, it's not like white culture has had a negative effect on South Korean people in terms of progress and opportunity. To me, there has to be some historical context.

that example was more to do with cultures changing rapidly at the moment.
if one of my kids develops a deep interest in black music and then spends their whole childhood voraciously listening to it at every opportunity then is that not their culture as well?

it may not be the same as someone who is black appreciating it, there may not be the same link to the lyrics etc but if it's the only culture they know then that's their culture in my opinion, so I think we may have to accept as time goes on that cultures are going to merge a lot more than historically.
I think what is important is not preventing that, but ensuring that people from minority cultures aren't excluded from the success and opportunities associated with it.

[JamesWales]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

that example was more to do with cultures changing rapidly at the moment.
if one of my kids develops a deep interest in black music and then spends their whole childhood voraciously listening to it at every opportunity then is that not their culture as well?

it may not be the same as someone who is black appreciating it, there may not be the same link to the lyrics etc but if it's the only culture they know then that's their culture in my opinion, so I think we may have to accept as time goes on that cultures are going to merge a lot more than historically.
I think what is important is not preventing that, but ensuring that people from minority cultures aren't excluded from the success and opportunities associated with it.

Look, this shit isn't hard to understand..

If your son doesn't listen to Black music then he's a racist
If he does listen to Black music then he's a racist.

It's simple.