A&E and ambulance performance worst ever - again

[JamesWales]

Re: A&E and ambulance performance worst ever - again

Hand on heart, I can honestly say that few things annoy me more than the politicisation of the NHS. It's deeply unhelpful, and barring some issues at the fringes, healthcare is politics free. Everyone wants the same outcomes.

This will never happen of course, but I would love to see some kind of formal agreement that healthcare be run on a coalition basis, perhaps with a formal committee to represent parliament (chaired by the Health secretary) so that all decisions are removed from the yah-boo of party politics and all parties are involved in agreeing decisions.

For me, it's unquestionable; whilst the NHS needs more money (what doesnt?) there are deeps structural issues that need addressing as well as serious questions about what should be provided especially as society generally ages and lives longer.

In healthcare more than almost anywhere else we need a cross party consensus and the ceasing of it being used as a political football.

Again, it won't happen, but imagine a formal party policy that said they will specifically reach out to all parties to share management of the NHS? Would be wholly positive in my opinion

[Rjk]

Re: A&E and ambulance performance worst ever - again

On Wednesday I listened to the Welsh Health Minister being interviewed on 5 Live. The interviewer said that one in four people in Wales are waiting on hospital treatment for various ailments, whereas it’s one in twelve in England. As the Health Minister didn’t correct him on that, I assume she knew the figures were correct - if they are, they’re appalling and reflect badly on Welsh Labour who have to take a big share of the responsibility for that situation. It’s no defence to talk about what’s happening in.England because, in this case, they are significantly better than the Welsh ones, but it’s also fair to say that it’s no endorsement of the UK Government that they presiding over a situation that is bad, but not as bad as in Wales.

Seems to me that the NHS needs help in terms of organisational management as well as financial help, how far is the average person willing to go to maintain the NHS in the format it was created in or as close to it as is possible now?

Wales has an older population on average than England, and it has a poorer population on average than England. 21% of people in wales are of pensionable age - most English regions are around 18% with london 12%!. The South West has 22% but a higher proportion of those are wealthy retirees than in Wales. This stuff does make a difference - I'm sure people on here in their 60s or 70s will be aware how much more they or their friends have to rely on the NHS than when they were younger.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: A&E and ambulance performance worst ever - again

Wales has an older population on average than England, and it has a poorer population on average than England. 21% of people in wales are of pensionable age - most English regions are around 18% with london 12%!. The South West has 22% but a higher proportion of those are wealthy retirees than in Wales. This stuff does make a difference - I'm sure people on here in their 60s or 70s will be aware how much more they or their friends have to rely on the NHS than when they were younger.

None of which fully explains why the situation is so much worse in Wales in the example I quoted. It’s never happened before when it comes to politics, but I agree with James Wales in the post above - some sort of cross party approach is needed here.

[jon1959]

Re: A&E and ambulance performance worst ever - again

Hand on heart, I can honestly say that few things annoy me more than the politicisation of the NHS. It's deeply unhelpful, and barring some issues at the fringes, healthcare is politics free. Everyone wants the same outcomes.

What do you mean by 'politicisation'? And how do you conclude that 'everyone wants the same outcomes'?

Pro or anti privatisation is a political question - and not just about efficiency/exploitation, management of costs and risks, and whether or not you are happy with public money going into private profit.

Choices about local or centralised priorities and decision making are political. So are questions about what is treated and what is not by the NHS (especially around fertility, gender realignment and 'lifestyle' diseases - which are often more about poverty). So are relationships with drug companies. Choices about recruitment into the NHS from other countries, and collaboration (or not) with other health services are also political. Maybe the objective (shared by all major parties according to their manifestos) of joining up of health and social care is more about management and administration - but it also includes clashes of priorities and cultures between public and private sector organisations and resolving that is a political issue - as are the choices about personal care funding.

I assume from your previous posts that the thing that annoys you most is the 'politicisation' of procurement practices - where the opposition have pointed out the greed, corruption and waste of the government handing out PPE contracts to their mates? Of course that should never be politicised! No that is 'deeply unhelpful'!

[Rjk]

Re: A&E and ambulance performance worst ever - again

None of which fully explains why the situation is so much worse in Wales in the example I quoted. It’s never happened before when it comes to politics, but I agree with James Wales in the post above - some sort of cross party approach is needed here.

I think it does go part of the way to explaining it - the region of England with the longest waits for hospital handover times by far is the south West - which is the region with the most similar demographics to Wales . There will also be the more demands on home care being in place in these regions that causes a delay on patients being released from hospital. The Elderly need exponentially more care from the NHS than the working age population. I think Wales and the South West should get a lot more health and social care funding proportionally in order to be able to deal wth it.

[JamesWales]

Re: A&E and ambulance performance worst ever - again

What do you mean by 'politicisation'? And how do you conclude that 'everyone wants the same outcomes'?

Pro or anti privatisation is a political question - and not just about efficiency/exploitation, management of costs and risks, and whether or not you are happy with public money going into private profit.

Choices about local or centralised priorities and decision making are political. So are questions about what is treated and what is not by the NHS (especially around fertility, gender realignment and 'lifestyle' diseases - which are often more about poverty). So are relationships with drug companies. Choices about recruitment into the NHS from other countries, and collaboration (or not) with other health services are also political. Maybe the objective (shared by all major parties according to their manifestos) of joining up of health and social care is more about management and administration - but it also includes clashes of priorities and cultures between public and private sector organisations and resolving that is a political issue - as are the choices about personal care funding.

I assume from your previous posts that the thing that annoys you most is the 'politicisation' of procurement practices - where the opposition have pointed out the greed, corruption and waste of the government handing out PPE contracts to their mates? Of course that should never be politicised! No that is 'deeply unhelpful'!

Thanks for so quickly demonstrating how what I suggest would never work.

[jon1959]

Re: A&E and ambulance performance worst ever - again

Thanks for so quickly demonstrating how what I suggest would never work.

Zarah Sultana MP @zarahsultana

It’s been revealed that the Health Secretary, @SajidJavid, has shares in an AI company that operates in healthcare.

Javid has recently promoted AI being used more in healthcare. This would benefit shareholders of AI companies.

I told you they were dodgy.

11:16 AM · Nov 19, 2021


More outrageous 'politicisation' of the NHS!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/nov/19/sajid-javid-under-pressure-over-share-options-in-us-health-tech-firm

[Feedback]

Re: A&E and ambulance performance worst ever - again

Almost like an underfunded health service can't keep up with a global pandemic going on.

So we get more funding per head than England and performance is worse, but its all down to funding and not management.

I see.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: A&E and ambulance performance worst ever - again

What do you mean by 'politicisation'? And how do you conclude that 'everyone wants the same outcomes'?

Pro or anti privatisation is a political question - and not just about efficiency/exploitation, management of costs and risks, and whether or not you are happy with public money going into private profit.

Choices about local or centralised priorities and decision making are political. So are questions about what is treated and what is not by the NHS (especially around fertility, gender realignment and 'lifestyle' diseases - which are often more about poverty). So are relationships with drug companies. Choices about recruitment into the NHS from other countries, and collaboration (or not) with other health services are also political. Maybe the objective (shared by all major parties according to their manifestos) of joining up of health and social care is more about management and administration - but it also includes clashes of priorities and cultures between public and private sector organisations and resolving that is a political issue - as are the choices about personal care funding.

I assume from your previous posts that the thing that annoys you most is the 'politicisation' of procurement practices - where the opposition have pointed out the greed, corruption and waste of the government handing out PPE contracts to their mates? Of course that should never be politicised! No that is 'deeply unhelpful'!

[JamesWales]

Re: A&E and ambulance performance worst ever - again

Zarah Sultana MP @zarahsultana

It’s been revealed that the Health Secretary, @SajidJavid, has shares in an AI company that operates in healthcare.

Javid has recently promoted AI being used more in healthcare. This would benefit shareholders of AI companies.

I told you they were dodgy.

11:16 AM · Nov 19, 2021


More outrageous 'politicisation' of the NHS!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...alth-tech-firm

Again, thanks for demonstrating that some are forever interested in using the NHS as a political football.

[Feedback]

Re: A&E and ambulance performance worst ever - again

True, but the amount of money received by the Welsh Government from Westminster to run the NHS is determined by the Barnett formula, which doesnt take into account anything other than population size. Demographics pay no part in how much block grant awarded is to the devolved nations.

Ita a block grant. It's up to Welsh Labour how they spend it. A few less zebra crossings up the valleys and a bit more on healthcare would do wonders.

[life on mars]

Re: A&E and ambulance performance worst ever - again

The way that some are happy to give the Welsh government a free pass on the Welsh NHS is quite frankly shocking. Our ambulance service in particular has been in tatters for years.

Indeed indeed and at least we forget the cuts by a certain person back in 2013

Welsh NHS: Health minister defends tough budgets

Welsh NHS: Health minister defends tough budgets

The NHS in Wales is still receiving investment despite cut backs, Health Minister Mark Drakeford insists.

He spoke out after it was revealed that top civil servants issued a stark warning about the impact of cash shortages facing the health service.

They say ministers' decision to impose a tough budget settlement on the Welsh NHS in recent years is making the delivery of current services "exceptionally difficult".

Mr Drakeford told BBC Wales political reporter Daniel Davies that a review taking place this summer would determine whether the health service needed more money.

Published30 July 2013SectionBBC News

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: A&E and ambulance performance worst ever - again

Ita a block grant. It's up to Welsh Labour how they spend it. A few less zebra crossings up the valleys and a bit more on healthcare would do wonders.

What are you talking about?

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: A&E and ambulance performance worst ever - again

Again, thanks for demonstrating that some are forever interested in using the NHS as a political football.

You aren't going to win anyone over by being sanctimonious Mr J.

[JamesWales]

Re: A&E and ambulance performance worst ever - again

You aren't going to win anyone over by being sanctimonious Mr J.

It's not sanctimonious, far from it.

I think a cross-party approach to the NHS is the way forward, but acknowledged it would never happen.

Soon after comes a response that is basically a polemic of party politics, quoting the guardian and Zarah Sultana.

I think highlighting that is fair enough tbh, because it perfectly demonstrated my point.