Great away support yesterday

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: Great away support yesterday

There was nothing stopping our fans from standing on flat ground, in the light under the stand.

The thing is, we didn't know we needed to do this or that it was an option otherwise, speaking for myself, I'd have done what you suggest. However, any risk assessment would have to have taken the actual scenario I found myself in into consideration. By the time I was jammed into the crowd (on crutches), there was no way back. I didn't hear any announcement from anyone (IanD mentioned there was a policeman with a bullhorn but I didn't hear it) and anyway, by the time we were corralled it was too late (that's how corralling works) - we were already stuck. If I had fallen at the point of a surge, then serious damage would have been done or worse. Others would have fallen over me, all in the dark with no medics around.

I understand that fans pushing from the back would have contributed but I wouldn't 'blame' anyone in that scenario because they didn't know we were blocked off. In fact, I didn't see the police, all I saw were gates. I didn't even realise the extent of the police presence or that they were the cause of the bottleneck until I got past the gates.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: Great away support yesterday

After some pleading, a wheelchair user and helper were allowed through the police lines with a ripple of applause from those who could see than common sense prevailed. I've worked with autistic students and know full well how unfamiar changes in situation can cause stress (and, indeed violent outbursts). There were families with small kids in the mix, too. As was rightly pointed out by our fans, if the police had allowed our supporters at least up onto the coach park, hundreds could have got on to the buses and eased the pressure. But it wasn't to be. Also, closing Bordesley station after the match meant fans were either having to walk the Digbeth corridor or wait for a bus...if one came. It's about a 30 minute walk from St Andrews to New Street ir Moor Street. Not so good if you are elderley, infirm or with nippers. Having WBA and Birmingham kick off at the same time, and with fans on the same train line, was daft in the first place. Simple risk assessment would dictate one match kicks off say 1.00pm and the other 3.00pm just to spread fans out. Or one Saturday KO, one Sunday. As it was, two matches kicking off at the same time/Christmas market/Christmas shoppers/train and bus chaos. And the A46 over Coventry way was closed for bridge replacement. There were even some Wolves fans on our train, coming back from Manchester, as their match had kicked off early. Walsall were at home, too. Clearly there was no communication between WMP and Heddlu spotters, either, re station closure as they didn't know what was going on. Was there really a need to have batons drawn? Zulus?

Yes, New Street had a mix of supporters by the time we got back and I did have to walk too (we shared a cab with a top Birmingham supporter and his two sons on the way to the ground we'd got chatting to while waiting at the taxi rank) but there was no chance of a cab, the traffic was crazy, no trains back to the city centre. I may have missed an announcement but if they'd just asked us to stay in our seats at the end of the match we would have been happy to do that.

[IanD]

Re: Great away support yesterday

There was nothing stopping our fans from standing on flat ground, in the light under the stand.

....apart from a double line of WMP at the top of the slope! They had the high ground.It seemed like a late WMP decision to form the line right in front of the first fans coming out. By then, anyone wanting to leave was already on the slope, in the dark.....with hundreds piling up behind, some of whom happened to be under the stands in lit areas. I shudder to think what would have happened if people at the front turned round and pushed downhill just to wait on the flat. Never going to happen, thankfully. Hence a bit of argy bargy at the front and a few coppers with their batons out. Had we walked out, got on coaches, dispersed as in the past (alright, that's not always been the case).....no problem.

[Canton Kev]

Re: Great away support yesterday

....apart from a double line of WMP at the top of the slope! They had the high ground.It seemed like a late WMP decision to form the line right in front of the first fans coming out. By then, anyone wanting to leave was already on the slope, in the dark.....with hundreds piling up behind, some of whom happened to be under the stands in lit areas. I shudder to think what would have happened if people at the front turned round and pushed downhill just to wait on the flat. Never going to happen, thankfully. Hence a bit of argy bargy at the front and a few coppers with their batons out. Had we walked out, got on coaches, dispersed as in the past (alright, that's not always been the case).....no problem.

I think your missing my point. I’m not saying people should’ve stood in the car park with the coaches but underneath the stand. There were no coppers in the way back down to the area I was stood. We were kept back for what? 20mins? The police aren’t gonna move just because fans ask them to so with a bit of common sense people at the back could’ve stopped trying to push their way through a non moving crowd. After a couple minutes it was apparent that the crowd weren’t being allowed through so why keep trying to get further forward?

[IanD]

Re: Great away support yesterday

I think your missing my point. I’m not saying people should’ve stood in the car park with the coaches but underneath the stand. There were no coppers in the way back down to the area I was stood. We were kept back for what? 20mins? The police aren’t gonna move just because fans ask them to so with a bit of common sense people at the back could’ve stopped trying to push their way through a non moving crowd. After a couple minutes it was apparent that the crowd weren’t being allowed through so why keep trying to get further forward?

Coaches were just a few feet away. It would have been very easy to allow the crowd to get on the coaches if they had so desired. People just wanted to get home. Quite how high the risk of post match confrontation was between fans is a matter of debate. It was noticeable that there were no burger vans outside the away end and the fact that trains were not allowed to stop at Bordesley (information to that effect given out on arrival at Bordesley) implies that WMP had already decided to make post match dispersal difficult for City fans. The tannoy system was unintelligible as far as I was concerned so, maybe, a "stay where you are at the end of the match" announcement was made. That's an issue for BCFC. Thankfully, no-one was hurt and batons weren't used. Just a bit of unnecessary confrontation.

[tforturton]

Re: Great away support yesterday

I have to admit, though we were stuck in the crowd under the stand after the game, it's something I've experienced many times, travelling with the City, so I wasn't that bothered. But I can see how disabled people would have found it distressing.
When I finally got to the road, and saw a row of police motorbikes jammed together, to force the crowd to go through a narrow gap lined with jutting handbags and pedals, I did wonder if it wasn't all deliberate.

[Dave Blue]

Re: Great away support yesterday

It’s very rare for the City away end to exit a ground without some form of crush whether aggravated by the local police or not. Obviously it seems the WMP didn’t help. I would advise anyone who doesn’t want to get caught up in this to just hang back a few minutes.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: Great away support yesterday

It’s very rare for the City away end to exit a ground without some form of crush whether aggravated by the local police or not. Obviously it seems the WMP didn’t help. I would advise anyone who doesn’t want to get caught up in this to just hang back a few minutes.

Good advice. I think had we lost I would have sat back longer but getting that equaliser in the dying minute or so the subsequent high was a rush to the head and we didn't think it through!

[Canton Kev]

Re: Great away support yesterday

Coaches were just a few feet away. It would have been very easy to allow the crowd to get on the coaches if they had so desired. People just wanted to get home. Quite how high the risk of post match confrontation was between fans is a matter of debate. It was noticeable that there were no burger vans outside the away end and the fact that trains were not allowed to stop at Bordesley (information to that effect given out on arrival at Bordesley) implies that WMP had already decided to make post match dispersal difficult for City fans. The tannoy system was unintelligible as far as I was concerned so, maybe, a "stay where you are at the end of the match" announcement was made. That's an issue for BCFC. Thankfully, no-one was hurt and batons weren't used. Just a bit of unnecessary confrontation.

I don’t disagree that it would’ve been easier to let fans onto the coaches and I think it was the wrong decision to not allow it. However people are talking as if WMP crammed 2000 City fans into a space for 1000. In reality they didn’t stop anyone from returning to the concourse or even into the stands. There was loads of space behind the packed in fans and common sense should tell you if there’s a police line, pushing and shoving isn’t going to get you past. As for people at the back not knowing about the police line, if the crowd has been at a standstill for 5/10mins then again common sense would tell you there’s a reason people aren’t moving forwards and again, pushing and shoving won’t achieve anything.
If there was a second line of police at the back of the crowd then fair enough, but nothing was stopping people from leaving the crowd/crush.

I don’t know who has a say in running the local trains in Brum so can’t comment on whether or not it was WMP at fault for that.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: Great away support yesterday

I don’t disagree that it would’ve been easier to let fans onto the coaches and I think it was the wrong decision to not allow it. However people are talking as if WMP crammed 2000 City fans into a space for 1000. In reality they didn’t stop anyone from returning to the concourse or even into the stands. There was loads of space behind the packed in fans and common sense should tell you if there’s a police line, pushing and shoving isn’t going to get you past. As for people at the back not knowing about the police line, if the crowd has been at a standstill for 5/10mins then again common sense would tell you there’s a reason people aren’t moving forwards and again, pushing and shoving won’t achieve anything.
If there was a second line of police at the back of the crowd then fair enough, but nothing was stopping people from leaving the crowd/crush.

I don’t know who has a say in running the local trains in Brum so can’t comment on whether or not it was WMP at fault for that.

The thing is Kev, if common sense prevailed we'd never need risk assessments in the first place. All scenarios have to be taken into consideration. There was no way I could have turned back. I should have just hung back, but I didn't. There still shouldn't be any serious risk as there was on Saturday. Just because these things happen the way they do doesn't mean we should put up with it until something really bad happens. We've seen appaling risk assessments even as recently as the Euro final at Wembley. You're right to highlight that people shouldn't push forward, it's an important message. Generally, when disasters happen, it's never down to one incident though and is nearly always a catalogue of connected errors leading up to it.

[IanD]

Re: Great away support yesterday

I don’t disagree that it would’ve been easier to let fans onto the coaches and I think it was the wrong decision to not allow it. However people are talking as if WMP crammed 2000 City fans into a space for 1000. In reality they didn’t stop anyone from returning to the concourse or even into the stands. There was loads of space behind the packed in fans and common sense should tell you if there’s a police line, pushing and shoving isn’t going to get you past. As for people at the back not knowing about the police line, if the crowd has been at a standstill for 5/10mins then again common sense would tell you there’s a reason people aren’t moving forwards and again, pushing and shoving won’t achieve anything.
If there was a second line of police at the back of the crowd then fair enough, but nothing was stopping people from leaving the crowd/crush.

I don’t know who has a say in running the local trains in Brum so can’t comment on whether or not it was WMP at fault for that.

It was sardines up the front by the police lines and people would have been hurt if some had decided, unnaturally, to turn round and head back down the slope in the dark through our own fans to where they may or may not have been more room.
Around 1700 fans just wanted to leave and were being prevented from doing so. Bunching lead to pushing. WMP could not have chosen a worse place to stop us getting home. I would question the necessity of stopping us leaving and the experience in control and containment of the police officer in charge. Forming a police barrier seemed to be done on the hoof. Thankfully none of the police used their batons although one or two looked a bit panicky and had them out ready. From the temporary staff on duty at Bordesley station, verbally, people arriving were told that the station would be shut, acting on police advice. Buses were rerouted (as always) after the match but some disappeared completely off the timetable. Possibly staff shortages. As one person waiting at the Bordesley station bus stop suggested, if WMP had closed the station, then replacement buses should have been put on take fans back into Birmingham. As it was, sets of our fans were escorted partly by officers on foot and partly by several police vans ( one of which clearly had officers enjoying themselves in the back until someone turned the interior lights out). All in all, poor policing especially the failure to recognise the need to spread matches out over a time when Birmingham was going to be busy anyway and thousands using the one train line.