Max Boyce.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: Max Boyce.

Choirs and rugby both rose to prominence, in part as a result of the English media. Late Victorian Wales didn't know what had hit it. The population, particularly in South Wales quadrupled in a short period of time, mainly from immigration into Wales for work. Due to the nature of the work that attracted people to Wales, we soon had far more men living here than women and so male only choirs, sometimes as an offshoot of a mixed choir, began to form. Choral competitions were a precursor of sporting events, attracting thousands to towns and cities around Wales. Welsh choirs would sometimes compete in England and were often successful. We became known as 'the land of song' by the English media and, looking for an identity for this new Wales, it stuck, in the same way that we had an abundance of strong men who could beat the English public schools at rugby.

As it is, the male voice scene in Wales is in its largest crisis while club rugby seems to be on the wane.

National identity is a moving feast and usually built on myth, distorted history and a snapshot in time. There's an interesting Radio 4 mini-series on Welsh identity and it seems that many Welsh-speakers in the north and west of Wales have a different concept of Welshness to those who live in the valleys. No surprise there as no-one really can control what national identity is. For my two-penneth, I think the language (which I don't speak myself) is the key but that won't please many on here.

[Bobby Dandruff]

Re: Max Boyce.

Ah the Welsh stereotype.

Leeks, daffs, silly voices, choirs and sheep.

I wouldn't mind if it was all generated from outside but so much of it is perpetuated and exaggerated from within for cheap laughs and by popular figures to stay relevant.

EXACTLY.

(although I do like the '1-0 to the sheepshaggers' chant )

[A Quiet Monkfish]

Re: Max Boyce.

I agree with this.

His act was of a time (he isn't still doing it, is he?!) and parochial, entirely based on a Welsh stereotype that I always found really depressing.

Before Max Boyce we had Ryan and Ronnie. Things couldn't have got any worse.

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

Re: Max Boyce.

National identity is a moving feast and usually built on myth, distorted history and a snapshot in time. There's an interesting Radio 4 mini-series on Welsh identity and it seems that many Welsh-speakers in the north and west of Wales have a different concept of Welshness to those who live in the valleys. No surprise there as no-one really can control what national identity is. For my two-penneth, I think the language (which I don't speak myself) is the key but that won't please many on here.

The Radio 4 series is what came to mind when I read Bob's question about Wales moving on. It began by acknowledging the usual stereotypes which I thought was a promising start only to spend the first ten minutes talking about the wonders of the 6 nations so I switched off. But I agree; trying to find national identity is a futile exercise anyway and the usual tropes can be used in a negative way, so in that regard we haven't moved on that much (or moved on despite them).

Quick tangent: there was an article about Sarah Silverman on Walesonline about the times she used to take the piss out of the Welsh flag when she dated Michael Sheen. Walesonline were peeved but I think she has a point. It's a bit odd to have this mythical beast as an emblem, but I'm probably in the minority about that. Besides, flags are a part of the whole national identity vibe anyway.

[cathays blueboy]

Re: Max Boyce.

Was never a fan but seeing him on the pitch down West singing a revised version of Hymns and Arias is enough for any City fan,

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: Max Boyce.

The Radio 4 series is what came to mind when I read Bob's question about Wales moving on. It began by acknowledging the usual stereotypes which I thought was a promising start only to spend the first ten minutes talking about the wonders of the 6 nations so I switched off. But I agree; trying to find national identity is a futile exercise anyway and the usual tropes can be used in a negative way, so in that regard we haven't moved on that much (or moved on despite them).

Quick tangent: there was an article about Sarah Silverman on Walesonline about the times she used to take the piss out of the Welsh flag when she dated Michael Sheen. Walesonline were peeved but I think she has a point. It's a bit odd to have this mythical beast as an emblem, but I'm probably in the minority about that. Besides, flags are a part of the whole national identity vibe anyway.

Flags were foisted upon nations by their rulers at a certain point in time and we buy into such propaganda. And don't forget the religious references on many of them.

[Dorcus]

Re: Max Boyce.

I was never into the Welsh rugby scene and ipso facto I found Max Boyce annoying. I had a girlfriend once who presented me with a Max Boyce book as a Christmas present: I never opened it. Apart from a couple of other things it was one reason we soon parted. I thought this person doesn't really know me.

[Dorcus]

Re: Max Boyce.

Flags were foisted upon nations by their rulers at a certain point in time and we buy into such propaganda. And don't forget the religious references on many of them.

The whole idea of nationhood was to foster subservience and support for kings and queens and, subsequently other leaders. It was a device to ensure the hoi polloi would bear arms when called upon to satisfy any Royal whim and flight of fancy.

[splott parker]

Re: Max Boyce.

What’s this ‘Yoggy, Yoggy, Yoggy’ all about?

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Re: Max Boyce.

National identity is a moving feast and usually built on myth, distorted history and a snapshot in time. There's an interesting Radio 4 mini-series on Welsh identity and it seems that many Welsh-speakers in the north and west of Wales have a different concept of Welshness to those who live in the valleys. No surprise there as no-one really can control what national identity is. For my two-penneth, I think the language (which I don't speak myself) is the key but that won't please many on here.

I don't think we really do have a true national identity that we all rally around; if pushed I'd say singing would be it, where all parts of the country have what you would consider a traditional male voice choir. Rugby is almost totally blanked up north. Like you say, North and, to a lesser extent, West Wales are different to the much more densely populated South and east.

[Jimmy the Jock]

Re: Max Boyce.

Flags were foisted upon nations by their rulers at a certain point in time and we buy into such propaganda. And don't forget the religious references on many of them.

Divide and rule .

[Joe Gillis]

Re: Max Boyce.

Was he ever funny? i actually find him a sad stereotype and an embarrassment to Wales.
The fact our six fingered friends out west adopted his song says everything you need to know about their small town/small country mentality.
Now if we could just get our fans to stop parodying it.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: Max Boyce.

Was he ever funny? i actually find him a sad stereotype and an embarrassment to Wales.
The fact our six fingered friends out west adopted his song says everything you need to know about their small town/small country mentality.
Now if we could just get our fans to stop parodying it.

The highlighted sentence is perhaps more than a tad parochial too.

[valleys caveman]

Re: Max Boyce.

I finished watching BBC Wales' Slammed, a three part documentary on Welsh rugby between the late nineties and the beginning of the Warren Gatland era, yesterday and, initially, was puzzled as to why I enjoyed the last two episodes more than the first one. The penny dropped when I realised that the first episode had a voiceover by Max Boyce, while the other two were just straightforward talking heads to camera.

it seemed odd to me that you would use Boyce for one episode and not the other two (not that his melodramatic and reverential contribution added anything at all to the programme), but a possible explanation is that the first episode was a lot about contrasting how good Wales were in the seventies with how bad they were twenty years later, so I suppose someone who seems to be stuck in that era was used to emphasise that contrast.

It's not too strong a word to say that I despise Max Boyce now, yet, even with my self image as a cool young man whose musical tastes owed much, too much, to what was being said in the NME, Sounds and Melody Maker at any given time, I'd still play my old man's vinyl copy of Live at Treorchy now and again in the late seventies, because I found it funny and, in lots of ways, accurate when it came to the Wales of nearly fifty years ago.

Yet, Boyce's act seems sentimental, hackneyed and way, way past its sell by date now. Is that because, Wales has moved on and is a more confident and vibrant country now or is it just that I have changed into an old curmudgeon who has lost his sense of humour?

I watched Slammed and enjoyed it too.
I thought Gareth Thomas (Alfie) didn't come out of it that well. Seemed to me like he thought of himself as some sort of saviour of Welsh rugby.
His spat with Eddie Butler was mildly amusing though.

[NottinghamBlue]

Re: Max Boyce.

Before Max Boyce we had Ryan and Ronnie. Things couldn't have got any worse.

This brought back memories of Ponty and Pop in the Football Echo.