Harry Arter

[Rjk]

Re: Harry Arter

I agree and am aware that there are FFP rules. I guess my frustration at the moment is I feel we're stale. More to the point, the board is stale. Choo and Dalman have overseen two promotions and two immediate relegations. Their sanctioning of transfer fees, salaries, and appointments of managers have all cost the club dearly.

If Tan saw us as a living breathing football club and was genuinely interested, then new board appointments should surely have had to follow after allowing the squad to become as financially bloated with average players as they did (there's been one but he is another non-football guy and as I've questioned before, nobody seems to know what his actual role is) The bucks stop with the board and Tan. They are directly responsible (that's what they are paid for and is their job) for the two relegations. You can't claim the successes and forget about the failures. Going up once and coming down straight away was bad enough. To do it twice is unforgivable. The thing is, with our current set-up, we're likely to do it a third time too.

We've been caught napping since the lifting of lockdown. I see very little to no marketing of our club. The shop is badly managed. The ticket office is badly managed. For me, there's a kind of feeling of no hands-on senior management. It's just a feeling. That's why I'm frustrated that Harry Arter is even a discussion on here when I feel there are bigger issues at the club.

A lot of what you're saying is right, but don't get frustrated about discussions on here, it's just a place for fans to chat shit and none of it has any impact on anything - I'm sure that Vincent Tan hasn't cancelled an overhaul of the clubs management structure because he's read on here that the fans are actually more interested in ranking their favourite brands of crisps.

[WJ99mobile]

Re: Harry Arter

Luckily and sensibly the throwing sums like 6m at players at this level is over.

No parachute payments we cant do it even if we could.

If you throw £6m at the right player you can easily 5x your money though as well as giving yourself a massive advantage of going up for the jackpot.

Look at Brentford. For that sum they purchased Toney who’s know worth £35m.

We’ve just never bought well and when we have we've just made them look crap.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: Harry Arter

A lot of what you're saying is right, but don't get frustrated about discussions on here, it's just a place for fans to chat shit and none of it has any impact on anything - I'm sure that Vincent Tan hasn't cancelled an overhaul of the clubs management structure because he's read on here that the fans are actually more interested in ranking their favourite brands of crisps.

I'm shocked, I was expecting a job offer soon *heads over to crisp brands thread*

[Punxsutawney Phil]

Re: Harry Arter

I agree and am aware that there are FFP rules. I guess my frustration at the moment is I feel we're stale. More to the point, the board is stale. Choo and Dalman have overseen two promotions and two immediate relegations. Their sanctioning of transfer fees, salaries, and appointments of managers have all cost the club dearly.

If Tan saw us as a living breathing football club and was genuinely interested, then new board appointments should surely have had to follow after allowing the squad to become as financially bloated with average players as they did (there's been one but he is another non-football guy and as I've questioned before, nobody seems to know what his actual role is) The bucks stop with the board and Tan. They are directly responsible (that's what they are paid for and is their job) for the two relegations. You can't claim the successes and forget about the failures. Going up once and coming down straight away was bad enough. To do it twice is unforgivable. The thing is, with our current set-up, we're likely to do it a third time too.

We've been caught napping since the lifting of lockdown. I see very little to no marketing of our club. The shop is badly managed. The ticket office is badly managed. For me, there's a kind of feeling of no hands-on senior management. It's just a feeling. That's why I'm frustrated that Harry Arter is even a discussion on here when I feel there are bigger issues at the club.

Can't argue with much of this. Whilst being all too aware of where we've come from, I'd have loved to have thought back in the 90's and early 00's that we'd barely be looking down for 20+ years, it really grates that we failed to capitalise on our two big opportunities to grow the club.

Premier League money and the subsequent parachute payments were criminally wasted not once but twice by the current administration and we are treading water again. Again, it was once just a dream to tread water in the 2nd tier but there's a real frustration that we've not been able to kick on and we're about to embark on major rebuilding, with a number of contracts being up this year, when we could have built in a considered way with the riches that have passed through the club in recent times.

[Rjk]

Re: Harry Arter

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/card...rde/verein/603

8th most expensive, Manga, was worth the fee paid as was 12th most expensive (Smithies), 14th most expensive (Morrison), 19th most (Kimbo), 24th most (Thorne) and 25th (Vaulks) but we could have swerved on every other one on that first page and spent the money better elsewhere.

Not sure how it fits to this thread other than to say high transfer fees isn't all that and it being another post saying Brentford investing into talent ID with lower transfer fees paid is to be admired.

I was a big Kimbo fan, but I'd question whether we couldn't have spent that money better - never really delivered that often for us.

Some of them we made our money back or small profits on:
Caulker, Medel, Decordova Reid - so it's hard to call them a complete disaster - but then you have to think of the opportunity cost - could that money have been spent better at the time.
That isn't always down to the player though - sometimes we've made what looks like a decent signing , but the manager doesn't want to use them (i.e. Warnock with Decordova Reid, and arguably Tomlin).

There is an awful lot of waste on that list though.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: Harry Arter

Can't argue with much of this. Whilst being all too aware of where we've come from, I'd have loved to have thought back in the 90's and early 00's that we'd barely be looking down for 20+ years, it really grates that we failed to capitalise on our two big opportunities to grow the club.

Premier League money and the subsequent parachute payments were criminally wasted not once but twice by the current administration and we are treading water again. Again, it was once just a dream to tread water in the 2nd tier but there's a real frustration that we've not been able to kick on and we're about to embark on major rebuilding, with a number of contracts being up this year, when we could have built in a considered way with the riches that have passed through the club in recent times.

I know what you mean. On reflection, we've been very unlucky with Covid and before that the tragedy of Sala. So I have to remind myself (or be reminded) that it's only football and that things could be worse. But then that leads us back to treading water again. If we don't by some miracle get promoted this season, then I don't see us having any realistic chances of getting out of The Championship for a long time. That's when the if-only scenarios start to really eat away.

Anyway, I'm terrible for sidetracking so to keep things on-topic.....I really don't want to see Harry Arter in a CCFC shirt again!

[surge]

Re: Harry Arter

I was a big Kimbo fan, but I'd question whether we couldn't have spent that money better - never really delivered that often for us.

Some of them we made our money back or small profits on:
Caulker, Medel, Decordova Reid - so it's hard to call them a complete disaster - but then you have to think of the opportunity cost - could that money have been spent better at the time.
That isn't always down to the player though - sometimes we've made what looks like a decent signing , but the manager doesn't want to use them (i.e. Warnock with Decordova Reid, and arguably Tomlin).

There is an awful lot of waste on that list though.

I tried to give some thought to i) how much money each fee was at time of spending, ii) percentage of total budget at the time, iii) how much they performed for it. Manga is very lucky to come out in positive column based on being capable at premier league level but without that season it's another bad transfer.

Decordova Reid is another one where I'd love to read internal comms to see what club were thinking. Almost like Warnock wanted an extra dimension and ended up picking one he didn't fully understand - if he did understand then surely could see why it was such a bad fit whereas Camarrassa wasn't - and eventually didn't want to use.

I think we have spent money over past decade (mostly poorly) and have shopped abroad much more than in decades before that (also mostly poorly) so maybe we need to give some credit for putting an end to mistakes. Process needs to improve before we go big again.

[blue lewj]

Re: Harry Arter

I don't buy into the 'Tan got burnt once so we won't give the manager funds' argument that is trotted out again and again.

Transfers are hit and miss but not backing a manager, one that the board are telling the fans is the man to take us forward, with funds because of what previous managers done is ludicrous.

I think that it is more due to Tan not wanting to inject funds and having lost interest to an extent rather than 'you're not having any cash, remember what Malky spent it on'.

It is worth noting that the most comfortable promotion was achieved under Malky at this level when he was allowed to buy who he liked. The problems started in the Premier League.

The club either employ a new man, tell the fans he is the man to take us to the promised land and back him or not. They can't keep looking back to managers who spent money wrongly in the past. Managers who are no longer here.

[surge]

Re: Harry Arter

I don't buy into the 'Tan got burnt once so we won't give the manager funds' argument that is trotted out again and again.

Transfers are hit and miss but not backing a manager, one that the board are telling the fans is the man to take us forward, with funds because of what previous managers done is ludicrous.

.....

Saw a tweet yesterday which said that a good transfer window is one where 50% of transfers are in hindsight deemed a success, that transfers are based on months of work and last minute deals without that work is much less likely to do well. Went on to talk about how many moving parts there are involved.

My conclusion was that if the process behind transfers at our club needs work (and I think it does, or potentially did, based on the evidence when we've spent money or spent abroad) then throwing money around doesn't make the team or club better off.

[J R Hartley]

Re: Harry Arter

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/card...rde/verein/603

8th most expensive, Manga, was worth the fee paid as was 12th most expensive (Smithies), 14th most expensive (Morrison), 19th most (Kimbo), 24th most (Thorne) and 25th (Vaulks) but we could have swerved on every other one on that first page and spent the money better elsewhere.

Not sure how it fits to this thread other than to say high transfer fees isn't all that and it being another post saying Brentford investing into talent ID with lower transfer fees paid is to be admired.

Vaulks? Not for me. Nor Smithies.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: Harry Arter

I tried to give some thought to i) how much money each fee was at time of spending, ii) percentage of total budget at the time, iii) how much they performed for it. Manga is very lucky to come out in positive column based on being capable at premier league level but without that season it's another bad transfer.

Decordova Reid is another one where I'd love to read internal comms to see what club were thinking. Almost like Warnock wanted an extra dimension and ended up picking one he didn't fully understand - if he did understand then surely could see why it was such a bad fit whereas Camarrassa wasn't - and eventually didn't want to use.

I think we have spent money over past decade (mostly poorly) and have shopped abroad much more than in decades before that (also mostly poorly) so maybe we need to give some credit for putting an end to mistakes. Process needs to improve before we go big again.

I think that's fair and well put. I can get on board with that. The only caveat for me is the definition of 'go big'. <£1M? or >£3M? I don't know what kind of budget we've got or how much we can even spend anymore. We seem like a club licking our wounds right now and I'm afraid that's going to hold us back.

[The Hooded Claw]

Re: Harry Arter

Put simply, in the main, we have recruited poorly in recent years where substantial fees have been involved.
In other words, those in charge of recruitment either overspend on players or allow the wrong type of players to be recruited.
It therefore looks like there is a lack of understanding as to how the manager is going to use those expensive players.
This brings us back to the Director of Football debate.

[surge]

Re: Harry Arter

I think that's fair and well put. I can get on board with that. The only caveat for me is the definition of 'go big'. <£1M? or >£3M? I don't know what kind of budget we've got or how much we can even spend anymore. We seem like a club licking our wounds right now and I'm afraid that's going to hold us back.

I keep saying it but I think contract renewals and next summer's window (and what we see as consequence of that on pitch next year) tells us a lot about where our club is and what it wants to do going forward.

We have taken a step back but is that in preparation for pressing accelerate in a much more intelligent way or is licking wounds our new normal?

[blue lewj]

Re: Harry Arter

Saw a tweet yesterday which said that a good transfer window is one where 50% of transfers are in hindsight deemed a success, that transfers are based on months of work and last minute deals without that work is much less likely to do well. Went on to talk about how many moving parts there are involved.

My conclusion was that if the process behind transfers at our club needs work (and I think it does, or potentially did, based on the evidence when we've spent money or spent abroad) then throwing money around doesn't make the team or club better off.

I agree that the process needs work.

The club either admit this and take some blame or use every sacked manager as a scapegoat and blame them for money not being spent now (Covid aside, it was mentioned here for the reason Tan was more careful with the pennies way before Covid).

The poor recruitment is either down to the manager and his immediate staff who he brings in or is a result of the recruitment team as a whole.
The board are quite clever in that they accept the praise when Malky and Warnock got them up but aren't as accepting of the criticism when the club went down. All I will say is your signings of Cornelius and Madine were signed off by the same people as signed off the successful signings.

If they are being honest then they should accept the blame or at the very least accept that they lack knowledge and are led blindly. Either way it points to getting more footballing knowledge into the club and the recruitment areas to everybody but those in charge.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Re: Harry Arter

Put simply, in the main, we have recruited poorly in recent years where substantial fees have been involved.
In other words, those in charge of recruitment either overspend on players or allow the wrong type of players to be recruited.
It therefore looks like there is a lack of understanding as to how the manager is going to use those expensive players.
This brings us back to the Director of Football debate.

Yes! I think we're now playing Cardiff City Monopoly. It all feels very circular!