Kyrgios and Tsitsipas……………..

[Wash DC Blue]

Re: Kyrgios and Tsitsipas……………..

I rate Maradona ahead of Pele, but you only have to watch Goal, the film of the 1966 World Cup, to see how the latter was kicked from pillar to post by Bulgarian, Hungarian and Portuguese defenders to be convinced that he was something special - why would he have got that sort of attention if he just was someone who had an inflated reputation?

Didn't Eusabio receive the same treatment that tournament?

My point is that his claim of 1200 odd goals is bollox that he has helped perpetuate.
It's not that he wasn't a great...but it could be argued convincingly that he's not even Brazils greatest player...just a default icon.

Garrincha was more important in 1962 and Jairzinho arguably more important in 1970.

He played for a stacked Santos team in a comparatively poor league.

Then its debatable that Romario dragged Brazil to the 94 World Cup similar to Maradonna...then you have Ronaldo (phenom) and Ronaldinho replicated their amazing ability in Europe.

[Hilts]

Re: Kyrgios and Tsitsipas……………..

Didn't Eusabio receive the same treatment that tournament?

My point is that his claim of 1200 odd goals is bollox that he has helped perpetuate.
It's not that he wasn't a great...but it could be argued convincingly that he's not even Brazils greatest player...just a default icon.

Garrincha was more important in 1962 and Jairzinho arguably more important in 1970.

He played for a stacked Santos team in a comparatively poor league.

Then its debatable that Romario dragged Brazil to the 94 World Cup similar to Maradonna...then you have Ronaldo (phenom) and Ronaldinho replicated their amazing ability in Europe.

Nah its not debatable that Romario dragged Brazil to the final like Maradona.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Kyrgios and Tsitsipas……………..

Didn't Eusabio receive the same treatment that tournament?

My point is that his claim of 1200 odd goals is bollox that he has helped perpetuate.
It's not that he wasn't a great...but it could be argued convincingly that he's not even Brazils greatest player...just a default icon.

Garrincha was more important in 1962 and Jairzinho arguably more important in 1970.

He played for a stacked Santos team in a comparatively poor league.

Then its debatable that Romario dragged Brazil to the 94 World Cup similar to Maradonna...then you have Ronaldo (phenom) and Ronaldinho replicated their amazing ability in Europe.

I can’t remember Eusebio being fouled too badly in 1966, but I was only ten at the time, so might not have noticed it if he had been.

I wouldn’t argue about the 1,200 goals and would agree that there is a debate to be had about him not being Brazil’s greatest player. I was able to take in more of what was happening in 1970 and, although I thought Garson and Tostao were tremendous in that tournament, I’d rate Pele as the best international team I’ve seens pivotal player. You’ve also got to factor in 1958 when judging Pele, he was clearly something very special at 17. Nevertheless, it’s Maradona at number one for me because you’re right about Pele always playing in very good sides, whereas the 1986 Argentina team was basically Maradona and ten good, but not exceptional, players.

[Rjk]

Re: Kyrgios and Tsitsipas……………..

I can’t remember Eusebio being fouled too badly in 1966, but I was only ten at the time, so might not have noticed it if he had been.

I wouldn’t argue about the 1,200 goals and would agree that there is a debate to be had about him not being Brazil’s greatest player. I was able to take in more of what was happening in 1970 and, although I thought Garson and Tostao were tremendous in that tournament, I’d rate Pele as the best international team I’ve seens pivotal player. You’ve also got to factor in 1958 when judging Pele, he was clearly something very special at 17. Nevertheless, it’s Maradona at number one for me because you’re right about Pele always playing in very good sides, whereas the 1986 Argentina team was basically Maradona and ten good, but not exceptional, players.

I was listening to a radio interview a while back, but I can't remember who, I think it was an Argentinian journalist, that was arguing that the degree to which Maradona carried the Argentina 1986 team has been massively overstated. They made a pretty convincing argument at the time, unfortunately I can;t remember most of it - I remember one other player had had a pretty good season up front for Real Madrid and scored some important goals.

[Hilts]

Re: Kyrgios and Tsitsipas……………..

I was listening to a radio interview a while back, but I can't remember who, I think it was an Argentinian journalist, that was arguing that the degree to which Maradona carried the Argentina 1986 team has been massively overstated. They made a pretty convincing argument at the time, unfortunately I can;t remember most of it - I remember one other player had had a pretty good season up front for Real Madrid and scored some important goals.

I know what I witnessed in 86.

He carried them.

He was unstoppable.

[the other bob wilson]

Re: Kyrgios and Tsitsipas……………..

I was listening to a radio interview a while back, but I can't remember who, I think it was an Argentinian journalist, that was arguing that the degree to which Maradona carried the Argentina 1986 team has been massively overstated. They made a pretty convincing argument at the time, unfortunately I can;t remember most of it - I remember one other player had had a pretty good season up front for Real Madrid and scored some important goals.

I can remember a wide midfielder called Burruchaga who was very good and the player you’re talking about is, almost certainly, Valdano. There was, of course, the centreback with the surname Brown that everyone remembers and Pasarella was a very good defender who was coming to the end of his career then, but my recollection is that England in the Quarter Final and Belgium in the Semi were, essentially, beaten by Maradona even if his team mates contributed more in the Final against a West German outfit that wouldn’t really qualify as one of their greatest sides.

[J R Hartley]

Re: Kyrgios and Tsitsipas……………..

I was listening to a radio interview a while back, but I can't remember who, I think it was an Argentinian journalist, that was arguing that the degree to which Maradona carried the Argentina 1986 team has been massively overstated. They made a pretty convincing argument at the time, unfortunately I can;t remember most of it - I remember one other player had had a pretty good season up front for Real Madrid and scored some important goals.

He only scored both goals in the quarter final, one of which is arguably the greatest individual World Cup goals of all time, both goals in the semi final and then assisted 2 of the 3 goals in the final, including the winner with a defence splitting pass that was inch perfect to run onto.

Take a look at some of these statistics of his Argentina career and some specific from the 86 World Cup.

To argue that he didn’t carry Argentina to the World Cup in 86 is utter nonsense.

[J R Hartley]

Re: Kyrgios and Tsitsipas……………..

https://www.besoccer.com/new/amp/maradona-dies-his-world-cup-stats-which-may-never-be-matched-920741

Maradona stats.

[Rjk]

Re: Kyrgios and Tsitsipas……………..

He only scored both goals in the quarter final, one of which is arguably the greatest individual World Cup goals of all time, both goals in the semi final and then assisted 2 of the 3 goals in the final, including the winner with a defence splitting pass that was inch perfect to run onto.

Take a look at some of these statistics of his Argentina career and some specific from the 86 World Cup.

To argue that he didn’t carry Argentina to the World Cup in 86 is utter nonsense.

It wasn't my argument - 1986 was a bit before my time, and I've previously accepted the recieved wisdom here that he did carry the team - you can certainly make a very good case for it.

It was just interesting to hear an alternative viewpoint from someone who clearly knew a lot about the subject.

[J R Hartley]

Re: Kyrgios and Tsitsipas……………..

It wasn't my argument - 1986 was a bit before my time, and I've previously accepted the recieved wisdom here that he did carry the team - you can certainly make a very good case for it.

It was just interesting to hear an alternative viewpoint from someone who clearly knew a lot about the subject.

My first World Cup. 9 nearly 10. Maradona was untouchable. It’s always difficult to compare greatness across different eras but Maradona in 86 was the best player in the world by a country mile and no-one come close. Check out those stats in the link I posted above, they are insane.