Personal pronouns in the workplace

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace

The same thing that happens now if a woman born as a woman doesn’t “play by the rules”. As you said, call the bouncer.

You think there’s never been a single incident of a woman coming onto another woman without consent?

A woman who was born a man with the strength and power of a man who has a history of sexual offences against women ....when he was a man ......you think this person should be allowed into women's toilets , changing rooms etc ?

A woman coming onto a woman without consent of course happens but this person through changing is able to go into places she couldn't as a male

It's clearly a very dodgy situation

[Maurice Swan]

Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace

Why on earth is this thread on this forum? And really - is there any justification for all the foul words being bandied between certain posters?
Some people have threads removed for far less.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace

Having read through this post it’s obvious that some people completely get what trans is and others who are trying to understand/be thoughtful and that’s great to see. I can also see that there’s some people who don’t get it or don’t want to.

The trouble is there’s a lot of negative misinformation and anti trans campaign going on and it really doesn’t help in terms of helping people to understand. Campaign wise these people target vulnerable minority groups and it happened to gay people years ago but thankfully over time things are changing. The problem comes when people deliberately go out of their way to cause harm whether verbal or physical to trans people and there’s the issue but this says more about that person. Sounds crazy but trans people are currently being used as a scapegoat in a culture war hence all the rubbish about the bathroom debate - trans people just need to pee like everyone else.

I should mention at this point that I am trans myself so I have first hand experience (Female to male transition) with these issues. I can’t speak for every trans person but personally it is traumatic going back as early as I can remember. I would just go about my business as a young lad and suddenly someone would call me a girls name….it’s mortifying. It’s the constant reminders that you are supposed to be a girl that’s hard. Then I reach my teens - I just assumed I’d grow up big muscular and strong with a beard but kept being reminded every time I looked in the mirror …….you are curvy and your chest is developing! You can bear a child - It’s horrendous. This is why so many trans people self harm and even take their own lives. On top of this you have then got hatred in society but some people. Basically I just tried to navigate my way through life the best I can but then I am faced with …….you aren’t a man you’re a women by people - that really cuts deep.

All I can say is to try and put yourselves in that situation, imagine being called and told you are women when you don’t feel you are inside and imagine looking in the mirror and you have female body parts. It goes way beyond what clothes you want to wear or the colour of your t shirt etc - it’s completely about how you feel inside. For people who are not trans, there is never a reason to challenge who you are because everything aligns. But as a trans person when there is a mismatch or an alignment problem between how you are wired and what body parts you have, it’s very difficult.

In terms of pronouns though Icompletely understand and I’m pretty sure most trans people know that it’s hard to adjust to and making mistakes is just human.it’s absolutely fine. Obviously if someone kept doing it constantly then yes it may become awkward but no trans person I know would worry if it is a genuine mistake. To be honest even trans people, and I’ve done it myself, have made these mistakes and it can take time to adjust.

All I can say is just to give it a go. If you say something by accident just say oh sorry and correct it and move on….no harm done The problem lies where people deliberately call someone the opposite or wrong pronoun to what they are or refuse to acknowledge that being trans even exists. If people are unsure there is absolutely no harm in asking or if it feels too awkward to ask just call the person by their name until it becomes more clear. I would think the pronoun ‘it’ is very offensive HOWEVER, I was aware of someone using it as their pronoun once so it’s individual and unique really.

Basically gender is a spectrum and where the majority of people sit on the binary of either male or female, some people don’t. They may feel they are somewhere in between or actually feel they don’t identify with any gender whatsoever ever. I realise it’s very hard to take this in if you weren’t aware of this before but it’s important to realise it’s not new,trans people have been around for a long long time but there’s just more words and ways to describe things now which helps trans people but can be confusing to people who aren’t.

The main pronouns I come across are basically he/him, she/her, they/them (often used by people who are nonbinary or come along the spectrum somewhere other than male or female) but there are others too but it can be difficult to learn them all and take it all in so I basicallly would say as long as you are aware of the above 3 then if a person differs from these they will probably just say so.
Many workplaces now have policies in place to cater for different pronouns. It maybe hard for some people to adjust to it but I can say that it isn’t as hard as it is for the trans person in that workplace.

I really hope the above helps and hopefully it hasn’t come across as abit condescending or anything. If people don’t want to learn about it, it’s absolutely fine no one can be forced into reading about this but they are important life issues and you never know one day you could have a best mate, a partner or even a child who is trans. I am certainly not an alien from out of space but the way I see it, when I was made in the factory, they ran out of the correct body parts that day and had to give me the opposite.

I think the bathroom issue is quite a big one

You ask for respect and understanding , I think anyone who abuses trans people is not worth a response

You are of course correct .....everyone needs to wee ....but I think the opinions of women who have raised the issue of being in a rest room , bathroom , showers needs to be considered

Some would not be bothered at all but a significant number would feel very uncomfortable

With regard to your journey through life I completely respect that and i wouldn't have any time for people who don't feel the same

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace

Why on earth is this thread on this forum? And really - is there any justification for all the foul words being bandied between certain posters?
Some people have threads removed for far less.

I think it's refreshing that these things can be discussed Mo

Life is full of wonderful colours

[Maurice Swan]

Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace

I think it's refreshing that these things can be discussed Mo

Life is full of wonderful colours

On a FOOTBALL forum?

[blue matt]

Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace

On a FOOTBALL forum?

its a bit of a general forum though

the other forum is for politics and the rubbish Sludge tends to post from time to time ( no offence Sludge )

[JamesWales]

Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace

This has of course become an unfortunate political football that some people use as a tool in culture wars and where their perhaps legitimate concerns are ignored, but fundementally this is about being a decent, respectful and tolerant person.

As SuperBluebirds excellent post demonstrates, these are deeply personal issues for some people and it's not hard to refer to people how they wish, and that's not a gender or pronoun thing, it's basic courtesy. It is also really important that people feel there is arena in which they can discuss the wider political issues if they so wish, but that doesn't change respect for people, whatever you may think about the big issues.

As I will always preach, live and let live, humans are diverse and it's great that people can live and flourish however they wish.

[UNDERHILL1927]

Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace

Why on earth is this thread on this forum? And really - is there any justification for all the foul words being bandied between certain posters?
Some people have threads removed for far less.

Why not just focus on the issue instead of childish arguments.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace

Why on earth is this thread on this forum? And really - is there any justification for all the foul words being bandied between certain posters?
Some people have threads removed for far less.

There are other posts in this forum about skis, rugby, darts, Las Vegas and the automotive industry - and this thread clearly indicates what the subect matter is and that it even affects football teams, as confirmed by one contributor on here. You can always not read the thread if you want to avoid the subject matter, of course.

As for the foul language and descent into insults: I think those posts should be removed and not the thread itself.

[NYCBlue]

Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace

Having retired just over year and a half ago (and having only worked in the MoD for the previous few decades) I have a question about the use of personal pronouns in the workplace. Just before I left my job, my employer encouraged employees to insert their chosen personal pronouns in the straplines of their emails - and I wonder if anyone on here is aware of any disciplinary measures they have experienced or know of regarding certain colleagues not using them for the individuals concerned.

I don't have an agenda regarding this matter, as such, although referring to an individual as 'they' would not come easy.

I started a new job just before Christmas. I was "encouraged" to use personal pronouns in my signature. I used he/him but I wonder how I'd be treated if i used the opposite.

[Canton Kev]

Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace

A woman who was born a man with the strength and power of a man who has a history of sexual offences against women ....when he was a man ......you think this person should be allowed into women's toilets , changing rooms etc ?

A woman coming onto a woman without consent of course happens but this person through changing is able to go into places she couldn't as a male

It's clearly a very dodgy situation

A woman born a woman can have a history of sexual assault against women too. And it’s not like women are a homogeneous group that are all small and weak. Plenty of women could overpower other women and many men too without needing to have been born a man.
The solution is same in both scenarios. Get a bouncer.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace

A woman born a woman can have a history of sexual assault against women too. And it’s not like women are a homogeneous group that are all small and weak. Plenty of women could overpower other women and many men too without needing to have been born a man.
The solution is same in both scenarios. Get a bouncer.

It clearly isn't

A man convicted of rape against women who trans into a woman is clearly a risk to women

JK Rowling got dogs abuse for saying the same

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace

its a bit of a general forum though

the other forum is for politics and the rubbish Sludge tends to post from time to time ( no offence Sludge )

Metal Will Never Die

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Re: Personal pronouns in the workplace

I started a new job just before Christmas. I was "encouraged" to use personal pronouns in my signature. I used he/him but I wonder how I'd be treated if i used the opposite.

What represents using the opposite?