20mph online petition

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

So that's a no from you then?

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It's a both. I son't know how Devolved Government budgets work, maybe you do, Bit i would be very surprised if money could be taken from one thing to another (From Health to infrastructure) I would have thought that spending is set out and it has to be used on the things it is allocated towards. Unless someone can tell me different.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

People stopped walking their dogs during covid :hehe: (not bullying, genuinely laughing)

If true that must be one weird place, and not like the rest of the UK.

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When they first locked down in Northern Italy there was a report that as one of the only reasons they would let people leave to exercise their dog a dog in an apartment block nearly did from exhaustion because it was the only one in the block and all the residents were'borrowing' it to get some fresh air. The poor dog was being walked about 12 hours day. :hehe:

The area of Swansea im in is a nightmare.

Signs unclear.

Signs covered in paint.

They need to sort it out.

With the traffic at 20mph definitely finding it easier at junctions pulling out mind.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

It's a both. I son't know how Devolved Government budgets work, maybe you do, Bit i would be very surprised if money could be taken from one thing to another (From Health to infrastructure) I would have thought that spending is set out and it has to be used on the things it is allocated towards. Unless someone can tell me different.

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They can essentially allocate things as they see fit. There are statutory obligations that govts (mainly through councils) have to provide, such as waste collection, education etc so you couldn't cut all funding but within reasonable parameters the Welsh Govt is fit to allocate resources as they see fit.

That's why when the UK govt announces extra funding on some specific health initiative for example, they give a chunk of money to the devolved govts but it doesn't have to be spent on the same thing.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

They can essentially allocate things as they see fit. There are statutory obligations that govts (mainly through councils) have to provide, such as waste collection, education etc so you couldn't cut all funding but within reasonable parameters the Welsh Govt is fit to allocate resources as they see fit.

That's why when the UK govt announces extra funding on some specific health initiative for example, they give a chunk of money to the devolved govts but it doesn't have to be spent on the same thing.

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What was that story a few months ago the WAG had to give Westminster back 180 million or something as they hadn’t managed to spend it in the allotted time given…..you really wonder what goes on behind those doors eh?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

They can essentially allocate things as they see fit. There are statutory obligations that govts (mainly through councils) have to provide, such as waste collection, education etc so you couldn't cut all funding but within reasonable parameters the Welsh Govt is fit to allocate resources as they see fit.

That's why when the UK govt announces extra funding on some specific health initiative for example, they give a chunk of money to the devolved govts but it doesn't have to be spent on the same thing.

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There was a lot of finger pointing and stamping of tiny feet on here a few months back when it was ‘revealed’ that the WAG hadn’t used its full NHS funding allocation (under the formula at the time) on the NHS. They had moved some of their health budget into adult social care - to help join up the services and get better value and outcomes from the money available to them. On the face of it that was smart and sensible - but denounced by government ministers on weekend politics talk shows and by the army of Tory cheerleaders on CCMB.

So yes - there is some discretion on how London determined funding is used.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

There was a lot of finger pointing and stamping of tiny feet on here a few months back when it was ‘revealed’ that the WAG hadn’t used its full NHS funding allocation (under the formula at the time) on the NHS. They had moved some of their health budget into adult social care - to help join up the services and get better value and outcomes from the money available to them. On the face of it that was smart and sensible - but denounced by government ministers on weekend politics talk shows and by the army of Tory cheerleaders on CCMB.

So yes - there is some discretion on how London determined funding is used.

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Yeah there is a FullFact thing on it here - refers to Scotland but in this respect it's the same for Wales too.

The WG have a huge say over health expenditure. Not only can they allocate the main WG as they see fit, they can also choose what to do with additional funds that come about as a result of increases in England. They also have more tax raising powers now.

https://fullfact.org/online/scotland...ding-devolved/

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Lobby your party in Westminster to provide the funds.

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For Drippy to waste on nonsense :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

It's a both. I son't know how Devolved Government budgets work, maybe you do, Bit i would be very surprised if money could be taken from one thing to another (From Health to infrastructure) I would have thought that spending is set out and it has to be used on the things it is allocated towards. Unless someone can tell me different.

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It didn't have to be spent on this nonsense policy, 31 pages and everyone seems to agree because no one has come out and said yes this should be the Welsh government's absolute top priority and was the best use for this money, even though the is the CCFC labour board.

We got there in the end, now how do we overturn it and make sure this never happens again, we are a poor Country and can't afford to be throwing Millions, down the toilet.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

It didn't have to be spent on this nonsense policy, 31 pages and everyone seems to agree because no one has come out and said yes this should be the Welsh government's absolute top priority and was the best use for this money, even though the is the CCFC labour board.

We got there in the end, now how do we overturn it and make sure this never happens again, we are a poor Country and can't afford to be throwing Millions, down the toilet.

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I take it ***** (he who cannot be named) board is the Tory one?

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

It didn't have to be spent on this nonsense policy, 31 pages and everyone seems to agree because no one has come out and said yes this should be the Welsh government's absolute top priority and was the best use for this money, even though the is the CCFC labour board.

We got there in the end, now how do we overturn it and make sure this never happens again, we are a poor Country and can't afford to be throwing Millions, down the toilet.

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It wasn't 'Absolute Priority' And although i prefer Welsh Labour to Parliamentary Labour, i am no fan of The Labour Party, Believe me.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I take it ***** (he who cannot be named) board is the Tory one?

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:hehe: Yes there is a clear political divide.

Who's the first to say **** off over there then :hehe:

Probably Sludge or JR.

My job of educating you lot is not finished yet :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

:hehe: Yes there is a clear political divide.

Who's the first to say **** off over there then :hehe:

Probably Sludge or JR.

My job of educating you lot is not finished yet :thumbup:

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One or two hold a few prejudices as well if you dare to question the official narrative, or sway towards a different political ideology, the last time I looked, I thought All OpiNioNs arE welcomE ….

To put to bed the argument about the effects of an impact at 30mph compared to 20mph we just need to go back to the basic physics. An object moving at a given velocity (speed) will have a kinetic energy (energy due to its mass and motion) as shown below:


Kinetic energy (in joules) = ½ MV2 - where M = mass (kg) and V = velocity (m/s)

30 mph = 13.4 m/s (meters per second) - 20 mph = 8.9 m/s

Weight of average sized car = 1900kg


At 30 mph the kinetic energy of a car is:

0.5 x 1900 x (13.4 x 13.4) = 170,582 J


At 20mph the kinetic energy of a car is

0.5 x 1900 x (8.9 x 8.9) = 72,250 J


That is a percentage difference of 57.6%. Therefore a car striking a pedestrian at 30mph will have more than double the energy of a car travelling at 20mph. This is because the energy is dependant on the square of the speed.

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Originally Posted by 79blue

To put to bed the argument about the effects of an impact at 30mph compared to 20mph we just need to go back to the basic physics. An object moving at a given velocity (speed) will have a kinetic energy (energy due to its mass and motion) as shown below:


Kinetic energy (in joules) = ½ MV2 - where M = mass (kg) and V = velocity (m/s)

30 mph = 13.4 m/s (meters per second) - 20 mph = 8.9 m/s

Weight of average sized car = 1900kg


At 30 mph the kinetic energy of a car is:

0.5 x 1900 x (13.4 x 13.4) = 170,582 J


At 20mph the kinetic energy of a car is

0.5 x 1900 x (8.9 x 8.9) = 72,250 J


That is a percentage difference of 57.6%. Therefore a car striking a pedestrian at 30mph will have more than double the energy of a car travelling at 20mph. This is because the energy is dependant on the square of the speed.

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My five year old Grandaughter knows that.

You must agree there were better needs for the money :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

My five year old Grandaughter knows that.

You must agree there were better needs for the money :thumbup:

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it will save money

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

My five year old Grandaughter knows that.

You must agree there were better needs for the money :thumbup:

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How many goalposts have you got and how many times do they move per day? :hehe::hehe::hehe::hehe::hehe:

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Originally Posted by Der Kaiser

How many goalposts have you got and how many times do they move per day? :hehe::hehe::hehe::hehe::hehe:

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See no answers just deflection another one must agree the money was wasted, I think that's the lot now :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Rjk

it will save money

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So you agree :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

See no answers just deflection another one must agree the money was wasted, I think that's the lot now :thumbup:

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What's the point of providing answers when the response shifts goalposts or ignores fact. Far more enjoyable to just laugh at you.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

it will save money

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Possibly, we'll wait for the accident stats to come out next year before we know for sure. This is undoubtedly going to cost others money.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

My five year old Grandaughter knows that.

You must agree there were better needs for the money :thumbup:

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The statistics show that 10 lives will be saved per year with this change, but the real cost for the tax payer is for those who are severely injured. This number far exceeds the number of deaths. When considering the cost of road traffic related injuries, it is not just the cost of initial treatment that needs to be considered. The lifetime costs of looking after severely disabled or brain damaged patients and their loss of economic output. In some cases this can run into millions of pounds.

To give an example, though not related to a traffic injury, I will show much my diagnosis of MND has cost myself and the state.

I was diagnosed with MND in May, having experienced the symptoms for 6 months. I have had to spend over £13,000 of my own money to buy equipment that helps my family look after me. This includes a stair lift (which now has be upgraded after only 4 months), a powered arm chair, bathroom rebuild and many other devices. The state has provided me with a hospital bed, hoists, wheelchairs, commodes and a lifting cushion. Next week I am a getting an eye tracking computer system that will allow me to communicate and control my environment (which on its own is about £4,000). I have on average 5 visits per week from different health care professionals and at present I can only travel by ambulance.

This in only 4 months is as you can see a large expense. Now image a young person with a severe brain injury requiring round the clock living for 40+ years. You can easily realise how much cost that impact on the tax payer.

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Originally Posted by Der Kaiser

What's the point of providing answers when the response shifts goalposts or ignores fact. Far more enjoyable to just laugh at you.

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Not a great deflection, but well done, persistent but can't say the money is better spent on the 20mph fiasco.

Let's close this one down we are all in agreement, this was not the best use of the money and Drakeford should be sacked :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by 79blue

The statistics show that 10 lives will be saved per year with this change, but the real cost for the tax payer is for those who are severely injured. This number far exceeds the number of deaths. When considering the cost of road traffic related injuries, it is not just the cost of initial treatment that needs to be considered. The lifetime costs of looking after severely disabled or brain damaged patients and their loss of economic output. In some cases this can run into millions of pounds.

To give an example, though not related to a traffic injury, I will show much my diagnosis of MND has cost myself and the state.

I was diagnosed with MND in May, having experienced the symptoms for 6 months. I have had to spend over £13,000 of my own money to buy equipment that helps my family look after me. This includes a stair lift (which now has be upgraded after only 4 months), a powered arm chair, bathroom rebuild and many other devices. The state has provided me with a hospital bed, hoists, wheelchairs, commodes and a lifting cushion. Next week I am a getting an eye tracking computer system that will allow me to communicate and control my environment (which on its own is about £4,000). I have on average 5 visits per week from different health care professionals and at present I can only travel by ambulance.

This in only 4 months is as you can see a large expense. Now image a young person with a severe brain injury requiring round the clock living for 40+ years. You can easily realise how much cost that impact on the tax payer.

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Very sobering.

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Originally Posted by 79blue

The statistics show that 10 lives will be saved per year with this change, but the real cost for the tax payer is for those who are severely injured. This number far exceeds the number of deaths. When considering the cost of road traffic related injuries, it is not just the cost of initial treatment that needs to be considered. The lifetime costs of looking after severely disabled or brain damaged patients and their loss of economic output. In some cases this can run into millions of pounds.

To give an example, though not related to a traffic injury, I will show much my diagnosis of MND has cost myself and the state.

I was diagnosed with MND in May, having experienced the symptoms for 6 months. I have had to spend over £13,000 of my own money to buy equipment that helps my family look after me. This includes a stair lift (which now has be upgraded after only 4 months), a powered arm chair, bathroom rebuild and many other devices. The state has provided me with a hospital bed, hoists, wheelchairs, commodes and a lifting cushion. Next week I am a getting an eye tracking computer system that will allow me to communicate and control my environment (which on its own is about £4,000). I have on average 5 visits per week from different health care professionals and at present I can only travel by ambulance.

This in only 4 months is as you can see a large expense. Now image a young person with a severe brain injury requiring round the clock living for 40+ years. You can easily realise how much cost that impact on the tax payer.

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All the very best with your treatment, I am glad your family is helping you out and that you are making the most of your difficult circumstances.

We can agree to disagree on the use of the money for speed reduction, I appreciate we are looking at it from different perspectives, I would prefer the money to be spent on people like yourself, rather than wasted on road signs and traffic enforcement, that a large percentage of the population don't agree with and feel is a waste of time.

It's done for now, I'll just have to live with it until the changes back to 30mph are gradually reintroduced to the bigger safer roads away from schools.

Hopefully it will speed up Drakeford's leaving party so it's there is some good that will come from it.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

I would prefer the money to be spent on people like yourself.

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You'll be evicted from the Tory Party if they get a whiff those are your true sentiments.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

All the very best with your treatment, I am glad your family is helping you out and that you are making the most of your difficult circumstances.

We can agree to disagree on the use of the money for speed reduction, I appreciate we are looking at it from different perspectives, I would prefer the money to be spent on people like yourself, rather than wasted on road signs and traffic enforcement, that a large percentage of the population don't agree with and feel is a waste of time.

It's done for now, I'll just have to live with it until the changes back to 30mph are gradually reintroduced to the bigger safer roads away from schools.

Hopefully it will speed up Drakeford's leaving party so it's there is some good that will come from it.

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Out of interest, have you spoken to any of your councillors yet about how to try to get a 30 limit reinstated?

How embarrassing that the First Minister of Wales has had threats to their own safety off the back of a traffic calming measure. Next time you hear the words 'snowflake' or 'karen' being bandied about lets just remember this incredible dummy spitting by adults who fear being mildly inconvenienced to try and save lives.

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Originally Posted by caerkid

How embarrassing that the First Minister of Wales has had threats to their own safety off the back of a traffic calming measure. Next time you hear the words 'snowflake' or 'karen' being bandied about lets just remember this incredible dummy spitting by adults who fear being mildly inconvenienced to try and save lives.

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So everyone has to support every policy a govt comes up with because a handful of idiots send abusive messages to their political opponents?

Jesus, ffs!

Regional figures as of 24 September.
Including 20k English who are confused which Country they live in. Add multi email addresses/people voting more than once makes me wonder whether the figures are anywhere near accurate.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...eadmore-target https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...eadmore-target

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Originally Posted by dandywarhol

Regional figures as of 24 September.
Including 20k English who are confused which Country they live in. Add multi email addresses/people voting more than once makes me wonder whether the figures are anywhere near accurate.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...eadmore-target https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...eadmore-target

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Large number of English residents live on or close to the border between England and Wales but travel daily into and out of Wales, so are entitled to have a say over this issue, which directly affects them. Welsh people who live in England are also fully entitled to a vote. Plus what evidence do you have that there have been large numbers of multi e-mail voters voting more than once or other fraudulent votes ? The only person who has admitted this is a Labour London MP who did it deliberately to try to discredit it. Out of the 436000 current votes, over 416000 are from people in Wales anyway. Anyone who dismisses this petitions votes is as bad as Drakeford and Waters to me. Heads in the sand for purely political reasons because they have made themselves look stupid by introducing a law, without proper consultation, that large numbers of their residents don't agree with. PS. You are seriously barking up the wrong tree if you believe anything Wales Online publish about this issue.

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Originally Posted by 79blue

The statistics show that 10 lives will be saved per year with this change, but the real cost for the tax payer is for those who are severely injured. This number far exceeds the number of deaths. When considering the cost of road traffic related injuries, it is not just the cost of initial treatment that needs to be considered. The lifetime costs of looking after severely disabled or brain damaged patients and their loss of economic output. In some cases this can run into millions of pounds.

To give an example, though not related to a traffic injury, I will show much my diagnosis of MND has cost myself and the state.

I was diagnosed with MND in May, having experienced the symptoms for 6 months. I have had to spend over £13,000 of my own money to buy equipment that helps my family look after me. This includes a stair lift (which now has be upgraded after only 4 months), a powered arm chair, bathroom rebuild and many other devices. The state has provided me with a hospital bed, hoists, wheelchairs, commodes and a lifting cushion. Next week I am a getting an eye tracking computer system that will allow me to communicate and control my environment (which on its own is about £4,000). I have on average 5 visits per week from different health care professionals and at present I can only travel by ambulance.

This in only 4 months is as you can see a large expense. Now image a young person with a severe brain injury requiring round the clock living for 40+ years. You can easily realise how much cost that impact on the tax payer.

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I wish you all the best with coping with MND. I had an elderly friend some years ago with the same condition and he saw much humour in his situation. Not sure I could do that.

I'm going to change the angle of the conversation for a moment. If the whole reason for dropping the default speed limit to 20mph is to prevent more serious injuries, why aren't the Welsh Government looking at other roads and other speed limits? Why has there been no target of known problem areas? Drakeford has confirmed the WG aren't looking at other speed limits.

I did a speed awareness course and the purpose of it was to shock. Nicky Campbell hosted the 20mph limit on his show recently and his response whenever someone talked of the 20mph speed limit as nonsense was to present someone who had lost someone as a result of a road accident. That doesn't get anyone anywhere.

If the whole thing was about reducing casualties etc, the WG would be looking at more than just reducing 30mph speed limits to 20. They could look at sporting activities and what isn't safe there. I bet you could make savings with the NHS by modifying rules in sports like rugby. Football has considered limiting headers in training, for example.

There are so many things that can be done to help prevent people being seriously injured in all walks of life, far beyond targeting 30mph limits.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

So everyone has to support every policy a govt comes up with because a handful of idiots send abusive messages to their political opponents?

Jesus, ffs!

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Another overreaction. Of course not, bit worrying though that the debate about traffic has got that toxic. Politics is in the absolute gutter at the moment.

The interesting question with this one for me though is who is handing out the pitchforks ?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

So everyone has to support every policy a govt comes up with because a handful of idiots send abusive messages to their political opponents?

Jesus, ffs!

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Where did he say that? And the messages were threatening, as well as abuive. Love how you play things down jimbo.

So theres more people on the english side of the border signed than in each welsh constituency 20k of them.plus people who have signed more than once like eric the bee.we are looking at maybe 300000 .still a lot mind.
Ynys Môn 7328
Arfon 3578
Aberconwy 8145
Clwyd West 12140
Vale of Clwyd 11913
Delyn 12361
Deeside 14896
Wrexham 11621
Clwyd South 10448
Dwyfor Meirionydd 4386
Montgomeryshire 3757
Ceredigion 4937
Preseli Pembs 6826
Carms East 9694
Carms West and south Pembs 7464
Llanelli 10584
Gower 11992
Swansea West 9020
Swansea East 10072
Neath 10377
Aberavon 8234
Bridgend 9193
Rhondda 10072
Cynon Valley 8308
Cardiff West 10096
Cardiff Central 6591
Monmouthshire 6566
Caerphilly 11587
Islwyn 10469
Torfaen 9373
Blaenau Gwent 7104
Newport West 10661
Newport East 8516
Brecon and Radnorshire 4936
Cardiff North 11603
Cardiff South 12201
Merthyr 7560
Ogmore 9680
Pontypridd 10095
Vale of Glamorgan 13900

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Originally Posted by caerkid

Another overreaction. Of course not, bit worrying though that the debate about traffic has got that toxic. Politics is in the absolute gutter at the moment.

The interesting question with this one for me though is who is handing out the pitchforks ?

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Agree, political debate is in the gutter

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Where did he say that? And the messages were threatening, as well as abuive. Love how you play things down jimbo.

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Not playing it down at all. I am frequently calling out abusive or threatening language related to politics on here. Are you?

But it doesn't matter what the topic is. It's always wrong

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Not playing it down at all. I am frequently calling out abusive or threatening language related to politics on here. Are you?

But it doesn't matter what the topic is. It's always wrong

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The ironic thing though is that there is more fuss with this 20mph rule ( it’s a good thing if it’s around built up residential areas ) than there was when he overreached with his needless Covid restrictions. Strange times indeed.

https://twitter.com/AndrewRTDavies/s...wfuVQw3Jg&s=19

:facepalm:

In the last 2 Weeks I’ve not met one person in agreement with the changes.
Most are incredibly pissed off with it and some are ignoring it.

Trying to justify it because you are in favour of Drakeford or The Senydd seems nuts to me.

If you want greater safety, start with the anti social wankers doing wheelies and zipping in and out of traffic, off the main roads.