40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

But the question was about Hamas in its current iteration, not what else this may spawn. Not many people talk about Al Queda or even ISIS these days but I would guess as long as there is a cause some people will rally to whatever flag is fluttering. I have little doubt that without a political solution the future you describe is the most likely scenario.

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That's exactly what I meant in that in reality it's a pointless question

I don't really care

Insert next insane terror group

Rinse and repeat

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

The problem is that Hamas disappear, but new groups emerge. There is a long history of Islamic extremism now, not helped by proxy Shia/Sunni conflicts, Iran, Saudi Arabia and all the rest of it.

What, I guess, Israel wants is to so brutally eliminate Hamas that no one would want to bring it upon themselves to wish to be ruled by them again. Whether that works or not is up for debate, but I'm sceptical. How many of us have ever known peace in the middle east?

For me it's hard to see peace in the wider region while Iran is the theocracy that it is and also whilst we don't have a proper two-state solution to Palestine and Israel (thats why the river to the sea chant matters..it takes us further from peace) - Israel isn't going anywhere, that needs to be accepted and so too is Palestine. It could be wiped off the map, but that woul rightly provoke such outrage that a war of annihilation would surely follow?

The irony is that whilst the wider middle east is in its usual state of unease, it has never been richer or had more influence globally - the Qatar and Saudi world cups help demonstrate that.

What needs to happen? For me, the complete destruction of Hamas, followed by a global effort much like the post WW2 era to build a proper and viable two party state - Israel withdrawing from the west bank etc, some kind of transport link from the West Bank to Gaza, I dunno, but things can't carry on like this.

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Well that's not going to work

Further attacks on gaza in the hunt for hamas will lead to more martyrs and future generations wanting to kill Israelis

We need a UN peace keeping force and a two state solution

And the acceptance that its always going to be a area of bloody conflict , even after a homeland for the Palestinians

Blowing the bejesus out of gaza in the vain hope it will kill all the terrorists is just playing silly soldier games

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well that's not going to work

Further attacks on gaza in the hunt for hamas will lead to more martyrs and future generations wanting to kill Israelis

We need a UN peace keeping force and a two state solution

And the acceptance that its always going to be a area of bloody conflict , even after a homeland for the Palestinians

Blowing the bejesus out of gaza in the vain hope it will kill all the terrorists is just playing silly soldier games

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Ur probably right. It probably won't work, but then nothing else does either really

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Ur probably right. It probably won't work, but then nothing else does either really

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Giving the Palestinians a homeland and having a peacekeeping force and a Liberal Israeli government ......

Even all this together , with a good wind ......will not end the violence ......it will reduce it

That's the best to hope for

Peace when land and religion is involved is not possible imo

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

I'm not here to defend Richard Dawkins but if you were to know anything about him he discusses such things - and even describes himself as 'a romantic soul', cries when he listens to music and discusses the topic of love. I think you are extremely ill-informed regarding this matter. No surprises there.

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On the contrary, that's precisely why I asked how he can reconcile his ideas about the selfish gene with the concept of love! I have watched many videos on YouTube when he is in conversation with people like John Lennox for example and heard him speak quite emotionally on times, particularly the later ones where he seems to be much calmer and relaxed in his dialogue. In the earlier ones he tends to be full-on evangelical atheist!

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

On the contrary, that's precisely why I asked how he can reconcile his ideas about the selfish gene with the concept of love! I have watched many videos on YouTube when he is in conversation with people like John Lennox for example and heard him speak quite emotionally on times, particularly the later ones where he seems to be much calmer and relaxed in his dialogue. In the earlier ones he tends to be full-on evangelical atheist!

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I think he reconciles his perspective very well and can easily explain the primitive impulses in play regarding our ancestral evolution and the more complex and nuanced behaviour we are capable of due to our intelligence and intellect. I think the failure here is your lack of understanding of his perspective rather than his perspective per se.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Why do you believe that Jesus was the son of God when the Jews don't? Why do you believe that he was the result of a virgin birth when the Jews don't? Why do you recognise the New Testament when the Jews don't?

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The Jews are still awaiting the Messiah. AIUI Jewish scholars claim that there are a number of translation errors from the original Hebrew which in turn nullify some of the claims about Jesus fulfilling the OT prophesies about the Messiah. Also the Jews expected their Messiah to come as a powerful king who would raise an army to rid Israel of the Roman occupation. Instead Jesus came as the exact opposite - a servant figure, who paradoxically caused them trouble by starting to stir up the population and thereby threatening the status and power that the religious hierarchy enjoyed at that time. By having him executed by the Romans they thought that would be the end of their troubles.

I suppose logically then the Jews could not accept the New Testament as to them it was based on at best a misinterpretation and at worst a lie.

C.S. Lewis popularized the argument that Jesus was either a liar or a lunatic or the Messiah. I think it was Dawkins who added a fourth possibility – that he was deluded. From what I read from the gospels he was not a lunatic.

He could have been a convincing liar I suppose but he “put his money where his mouth was” in the compassionate way he dealt with people and the miracles of healing he performed. Also if he was a liar what did he hope to gain by deceit – not a lot it seems!

Deluded – well that might be arguable bar for the fact that he was resurrected after being dead for 3 days. That would take some delusion on his part I would say!

Hence I believe he was the Messiah and the New Testament is a true account of his life and works. Maybe the Jews will accept him when he returns in the Second Coming as it is will not be anything like the previous one and more in line with Jewish expectations of what the Messiah will be like perhaps?

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

I think he reconciles his perspective very well and can easily explain the primitive impulses in play regarding our ancestral evolution and the more complex and nuanced behaviour we are capable of due to our intelligence and intellect. I think the failure here is your lack of understanding of his perspective rather than his perspective per se.

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I seem to remember the "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" theory which was meant to explain the evolution of human behaviour. I'm not 100% sure if Dawkins was the originator of that though? I think there is a big difference between that and the more altruistic behaviour which we humans can exhibit where there is no personal gain from an action.

C.S. Lewis once said: First, human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and cannot really get rid of it. Secondly, that they do not in fact behave in that way. They know the Law of Nature; they break it.

The term 'Law of Nature' refers to the fact that it is part of our human nature and is therefore something we all know by virtue of just being human. Lewis believed that we know right from wrong, and still defy it.

Where do you think the notion of knowing right from wrong comes from?

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

I seem to remember the "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" theory which was meant to explain the evolution of human behaviour. I'm not 100% sure if Dawkins was the originator of that though? I think there is a big difference between that and the more altruistic behaviour which we humans can exhibit where there is no personal gain from an action.

C.S. Lewis once said: First, human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and cannot really get rid of it. Secondly, that they do not in fact behave in that way. They know the Law of Nature; they break it.

The term 'Law of Nature' refers to the fact that it is part of our human nature and is therefore something we all know by virtue of just being human. Lewis believed that we know right from wrong, and still defy it.

Where do you think the notion of knowing right from wrong comes from?

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Yes, behaviour that benefits a whole group plays a huge part.

Just to bring this back a bit closer to the subject of the thread - Palestinian Anglicans are getting more upset with the lack of support they have had from the Archbishop of Canterbury - who they accuse of relegating their plight and playing UK politics with his position and platform:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...truth-to-power

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

The Jews are still awaiting the Messiah. AIUI Jewish scholars claim that there are a number of translation errors from the original Hebrew which in turn nullify some of the claims about Jesus fulfilling the OT prophesies about the Messiah. Also the Jews expected their Messiah to come as a powerful king who would raise an army to rid Israel of the Roman occupation. Instead Jesus came as the exact opposite - a servant figure, who paradoxically caused them trouble by starting to stir up the population and thereby threatening the status and power that the religious hierarchy enjoyed at that time. By having him executed by the Romans they thought that would be the end of their troubles.

I suppose logically then the Jews could not accept the New Testament as to them it was based on at best a misinterpretation and at worst a lie.

C.S. Lewis popularized the argument that Jesus was either a liar or a lunatic or the Messiah. I think it was Dawkins who added a fourth possibility – that he was deluded. From what I read from the gospels he was not a lunatic.

He could have been a convincing liar I suppose but he “put his money where his mouth was” in the compassionate way he dealt with people and the miracles of healing he performed. Also if he was a liar what did he hope to gain by deceit – not a lot it seems!

Deluded – well that might be arguable bar for the fact that he was resurrected after being dead for 3 days. That would take some delusion on his part I would say!

Hence I believe he was the Messiah and the New Testament is a true account of his life and works. Maybe the Jews will accept him when he returns in the Second Coming as it is will not be anything like the previous one and more in line with Jewish expectations of what the Messiah will be like perhaps?

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I know the background of the Torah and the perspective of the Jews. I just wondered why you don't have their take on things. Is it because you were introduced to the Bible as a compendium as a child?

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Yes, behaviour that benefits a whole group plays a huge part.

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Yet again you don't actually address the question but you do constantly complain that the masses don't come anywhere near your intellectual heights.

If you actually have the latter then why do you constantly fail in the former?

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

I think he reconciles his perspective very well and can easily explain the primitive impulses in play regarding our ancestral evolution and the more complex and nuanced behaviour we are capable of due to our intelligence and intellect. I think the failure here is your lack of understanding of his perspective rather than his perspective per se.

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John Lennox has made mincemeat of your 'high priest' on more than one occasion - in this example, Lennox states to Dawkins that evolution does NOT explain the origin of life - please avoid as usual if you wish to preserve your chosen delusion.

Dawkins tries to debate John Lennox

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

John Lennox has made mincemeat of your 'high priest' on more than one occasion - in this example, Lennox states to Dawkins that evolution does NOT explain the origin of life - please avoid as usual if you wish to preserve your chosen delusion.

Dawkins tries to debate John Lennox

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He's not my high priest, old fruit. I have never suggested as much. You have made that up completely. No surprises there. The delusion is all yours.
Why don't you read what I write rather than imagining what I write? Surely you can manage that.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

John Lennox has made mincemeat of your 'high priest' on more than one occasion - in this example, Lennox states to Dawkins that evolution does NOT explain the origin of life - please avoid as usual if you wish to preserve your chosen delusion.

Dawkins tries to debate John Lennox

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I'll have a look at that video but is it the case that you deny evolution but believe in the talking snake?

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

I know the background of the Torah and the perspective of the Jews. I just wondered why you don't have their take on things. Is it because you were introduced to the Bible as a compendium as a child?

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With apologies for the lengthy reply:

Yes, like most of my generation I attended Sunday School when I was a child. At secondary school my favourite subjects were the sciences, in particular biology, and although the biological processes involving DNA and RNA were only really just beginning to be understood, Darwinian evolution seemed to tick all the boxes about life for me. Consequently I abandoned any interest in religion/creation theory.

I was in my mid-30's (nearly 20 years later) when my wife, who had never had any exposure to, or interest in, religion of any form at all (apart from school assemblies I guess) decided that our two young children who were 5 and 6 years old at the time should go to Sunday School. As they were young and we had just moved to a new town, they were very clingy to her, she went along with them. It also gave her the opportunity to meet other young mums as we didn't know anyone then. To cut a long story short, it wasn't long before she announced that she was a Christian and indeed there was a complete change in her, very similar I discovered much later, to the experience that the atheist Lee Strobel described about his wife.

Reluctantly I ended up being coerced into going to the church with her. There I met some, what I now call, “real” Christian people as opposed to “church going” people. I know it's become a rather well worn cliché, but they had something special about them, something I felt I needed. I met a man and his wife there who subsequently became close friends. I spent many hours with them debating the Christian faith, in particular the resurrection of Jesus, which of course is the cornerstone but of which I was highly skeptical! If that was a fabrication then Christianity is a baseless belief. So I made quite a detailed study of this and read the books by Frank Morrison and Lee Strobel. These were both written by non-believing skeptics like myself, so quite influential.

Then one day I was driving my car concentrating on the road with nothing particular on my mind except for getting to work on time, when the most incredible feeling came over me. To this day I cannot explain what happened and no doubt skeptics will dismiss it as some random pharmacological/electrical event in my brain. My heart literally felt as if it would burst – it was just like the experience of falling in love for the first time and I had an incredible feeling of warmth and peace came over me, not just peace per se but a sense that everything was ok and under control with no need to worry. Now I know that some Christians claim to have God speaking to them several times a day every day but I can honestly say this was a one-off “Damascus road” experience which has never happened since. Dismiss it if you will, but I can tell you it was real and life-changing! The rest is history as they say.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

John Lennox has made mincemeat of your 'high priest' on more than one occasion - in this example, Lennox states to Dawkins that evolution does NOT explain the origin of life - please avoid as usual if you wish to preserve your chosen delusion.

Dawkins tries to debate John Lennox

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Where's part two?

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

With apologies for the lengthy reply:

Yes, like most of my generation I attended Sunday School when I was a child. At secondary school my favourite subjects were the sciences, in particular biology, and although the biological processes involving DNA and RNA were only really just beginning to be understood, Darwinian evolution seemed to tick all the boxes about life for me. Consequently I abandoned any interest in religion/creation theory.

I was in my mid-30's (nearly 20 years later) when my wife, who had never had any exposure to, or interest in, religion of any form at all (apart from school assemblies I guess) decided that our two young children who were 5 and 6 years old at the time should go to Sunday School. As they were young and we had just moved to a new town, they were very clingy to her, she went along with them. It also gave her the opportunity to meet other young mums as we didn't know anyone then. To cut a long story short, it wasn't long before she announced that she was a Christian and indeed there was a complete change in her, very similar I discovered much later, to the experience that the atheist Lee Strobel described about his wife.

Reluctantly I ended up being coerced into going to the church with her. There I met some, what I now call, “real” Christian people as opposed to “church going” people. I know it's become a rather well worn cliché, but they had something special about them, something I felt I needed. I met a man and his wife there who subsequently became close friends. I spent many hours with them debating the Christian faith, in particular the resurrection of Jesus, which of course is the cornerstone but of which I was highly skeptical! If that was a fabrication then Christianity is a baseless belief. So I made quite a detailed study of this and read the books by Frank Morrison and Lee Strobel. These were both written by non-believing skeptics like myself, so quite influential.

Then one day I was driving my car concentrating on the road with nothing particular on my mind except for getting to work on time, when the most incredible feeling came over me. To this day I cannot explain what happened and no doubt skeptics will dismiss it as some random pharmacological/electrical event in my brain. My heart literally felt as if it would burst – it was just like the experience of falling in love for the first time and I had an incredible feeling of warmth and peace came over me, not just peace per se but a sense that everything was ok and under control with no need to worry. Now I know that some Christians claim to have God speaking to them several times a day every day but I can honestly say this was a one-off “Damascus road” experience which has never happened since. Dismiss it if you will, but I can tell you it was real and life-changing! The rest is history as they say.

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Why is this related to any belief or existence of God ?

People who have no interest in , belief of or adherence to any God , faith or lifestyle talk of moments of peace , self awareness ......enlightenment ......

Why do you think that people who are not believers can't go through such experiences ?

It's a human experience and not particular to religious people

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Where's part two?

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Here is the FULL DEBATE Dawkins v Lennox :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

I'll have a look at that video but is it the case that you deny evolution but believe in the talking snake?

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The video was a one-sided and childishly edited piece and featured only someone who believes in miracles.
Pretty feeble.

Why the 'Good Lord" intervened in Israel in Bronze-aged times but sits back and does diddly squat in 2023 when thousands of children are being slaughtered following a heinous attack in the first place is anyone's guess. Still, if you believe in talking donkeys, people being turned to pillars of salt and virgin births, I am sure there is some platitudinous reason as to why the Abrahamic god is happy to just watch.

By the way, the Christian church once tortured people who claimed that the Earth revolved around the Sun.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Here is the FULL DEBATE Dawkins v Lennox :thumbup:

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Well that's just a load of twaddle

Absolutely nothing in that at all

What sort of Dr is this bloke ?

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

The video was a one-sided and childishly edited piece and featured only someone who believes in miracles.
Pretty feeble.

Why the 'Good Lord" intervened in Israel in Bronze-aged times but sits back and does diddly squat in 2023 when thousands of children are being slaughtered following a heinous attack in the first place is anyone's guess. Still, if you believe in talking donkeys, people being turned to pillars of salt and virgin births, I am sure there is some platitudinous reason as to why the Abrahamic god is happy to just watch.

By the way, the Christian church once tortured people who claimed that the Earth revolved around the Sun.

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Very revealing, now I am aware of what you consider the Christian Church to be.
You see man-made religion and nothing more.

I trust that will change, otherwise you will never understand.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Very revealing, now I am aware of what you consider the Christian Church to be.
You see man-made religion and nothing more.

I trust that will change, otherwise you will never understand.

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You are just a gullible chump who believes in talking snakes, virgin births and Noah living almost a thousand years.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well that's just a load of twaddle

Absolutely nothing in that at all

What sort of Dr is this bloke ?

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Just when you suggest that you are going to give serious consideration to an issue, you then flip back into an adolescent mindset?

Thanks for saving me a few hundred hours, I hope for your sake you get a ten minute departure into a suitable mindset to work out a robust stance on this and other crucial matters.

As for your Question re Lennnox, have you been banned from Google?

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

You are just a gullible chump who believes in talking snakes, virgin births and Noah living almost a thousand years.

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Gullible eh. Looking in the mirror again?

And even if you lived 950 years, it seems you would still be swimming without any answers in the same toxic soup.

Back in your bottle.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Why is this related to any belief or existence of God ?

People who have no interest in , belief of or adherence to any God , faith or lifestyle talk of moments of peace , self awareness ......enlightenment ......

Why do you think that people who are not believers can't go through such experiences ?

It's a human experience and not particular to religious people

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I don't think that, nor did I say that, did I! It's just that I have never had an experience like it before or since. It just so happened it came at the very time I was wrestling with last minute questions and doubts about the Christian faith, so in fact I was a non-believer at the time! Obviously easily dismissed by any skeptics out there (I would have been one of them actually) but it happened to me and the effect was life changing.

P.S. On other important issues - what the heck happened to City today. Listened on Cardiff City TV. Couldn't believe it. Two moments of madness indeed!

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

I don't think that, nor did I say that, did I! It's just that I have never had an experience like it before or since. It just so happened it came at the very time I was wrestling with last minute questions and doubts about the Christian faith, so in fact I was a non-believer at the time! Obviously easily dismissed by any skeptics out there (I would have been one of them actually) but it happened to me and the effect was life changing.

P.S. On other important issues - what the heck happened to City today. Listened on Cardiff City TV. Couldn't believe it. Two moments of madness indeed!

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Cardiff City , far more complex than your search for the white bearded bloke !

This thread has been highjacked - 100%.

Tonight the genocide has reached new depths.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

This thread has been highjacked - 100%.

Tonight the genocide has reached new depths.

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It's grim beyond words and I apologise for my part regarding the thread going off subject.

It has (been hijacked) but this "And even if you lived 950 years, it seems you would still be swimming without any answers in the same toxic soup."
Certainly seemed to sum one a certain individual.
Time for this thread to be locked or deleted.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

It's grim beyond words and I apologise for my part regarding the thread going off subject.

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Don't be daft

I rather lost track of it all..

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Originally Posted by jon1959

This thread has been highjacked - 100%.

Tonight the genocide has reached new depths.

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Yup, people saying the same stuff they always say as well, nothing new and ironically, zero tolerance or understanding for each others beliefs. Pretty sad and quite telling really in a thread about the genocide being carried out in Palestine.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I rather lost track of it all..

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You have been too busy lying low after having your arse roasted

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

You have been too busy lying low after having your arse roasted

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Your definition of a roasting is getting worse. Im guessing you don't cook much. Can't blame someone for wanting to take a few hours away from a horrible old rotter like you amyway, can you?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Your definition of a roasting is getting worse. Im guessing you don't cook much. Can't blame someone for wanting to take a few hours away from a horrible old rotter like you amyway, can you?

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CCMB 47 , Your Ego 0

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well that's just a load of twaddle

Absolutely nothing in that at all

What sort of Dr is this bloke ?

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Just a mere professor of mathematics at Cambridge University, that's all. His father, also a Christian, owned a store in Northern Ireland during "The Troubles" and made a point of employing people from both the Catholic and Protestant communities. This resulted in an attack in which John Lennox's brother was injured.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

CCMB 47 , Your Ego 0

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You are so weird!

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Originally Posted by jon1959

This thread has been highjacked - 100%.

Tonight the genocide has reached new depths.

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I agree, the situation makes me ashamed of my fellow human beings, if indeed some of them can even claim to be human. I guess this war seems all the more terrible because we have pictures from there beamed virtually immediately into our living rooms - a scenario which was not possible during WW2, during the bombing of Dresden or the siege of Stalingrad for example. Just imagine what that would have been like to witness. Sadly mankind has learned nothing in the intervening 80 years it seems.

Although I do admit my part in the hijacking of the thread, I won't apologise for my Christian faith. I think it started when I simply had to challenge the baseless assertion that the "eye-for-an-eye" philosophy is supported in the Gospels in the New Testament. I asked the poster if he could let me know the reference for this. He did supply a reference but he had clearly not read it as it has completely the opposite meaning, which, fair play he later conceded. I was happy to leave it there but others then weighed in, apparently possessing superior intelligence to me, and also the usual "it's all nonsense" rhetoric. I am quite happy for my faith to be continued to be challenged, but I'll take the hint and try to restrict myself to the main topic from here on in!

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Just a mere professor of mathematics at Cambridge University, that's all. His father, also a Christian, owned a store in Northern Ireland during "The Troubles" and made a point of employing people from both the Catholic and Protestant communities. This resulted in an attack in which John Lennox's brother was injured.

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There are some scientists and Dr's and intelligent people out there who are Christians but not very many

As one goes higher up the intelligence ladder Christians fall off and scientists keep climbing