Coronavirus update - NO MORE RESTRICTIONS

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Originally Posted by Feedback

the cause of Covid19 is a health issue. The consequence of Covid19 is much broader.

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Should we just focus on the cause then? Say "f**k it" to the consequences?

Not sure how you're going to try to dig yourself out of this hole.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

and? the airport was still open.

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Shutting Cardiff would have had minimal effect in Wales compared to shutting airports in England.

Because the passenger numbers are considerably higher, and people move around within the UK.

So when you say that England decisions didn't impact on Wales, you are wrong. Sorry my friend, I know you deal with that quite badly :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Feedback

one is, two are being schooled from home.

that's a consequence of the pandemic, not a cause.

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But people dying in hospitals is the cause?

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Originally Posted by Feedback

I use it, it was open an awful lot across the summer and into autumn - I used to fly from their 3 or 4 times a week.

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what would have been the point in closing Cardiff airport. people would have just flown to Bristol or London airports.
probably a lot more fly from there anyway with a final destination in Wales, so as an action it would have been utterly futile.
clearly you are intelligent enough to understand this you're just being wilfully dull.

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Prove it.

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the burden of proof lay with he who makes the claim. and its your claim, so fill yer boots.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

what would have been the point in closing Cardiff airport. people would have just flown to Bristol or London airports.
probably a lot more fly from there anyway with a final destination in Wales, so as an action it would have been utterly futile.
clearly you are intelligent enough to understand this you're just being wilfully dull.

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Cardiff has about 1.5m passengers a year

Heathrow alone has about 1.4m passengers a week.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

the burden of proof lay with he who makes the claim. and its your claim, so fill yer boots.

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Your claim is that I'm wrong...

So prove it.

Prove that the WAG were in charge of the things I have said the UK government were in charge of.

You always have to be right, so this shouldn't be much of stretch for you :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Feedback

the burden of proof lay with he who makes the claim. and its your claim, so fill yer boots.

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****ing hell:hehe:

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Failing to do anything to prevent or test people entering the country has been a failing of the UK government.

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agreed

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Originally Posted by Rjk

The mixed messaging being sent out by prominent Tories, eat out to help out, driving to barnard castle etc again the UK government.
Millions of pounds given to tory donors to provide goods and services they had no track record of doing.

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with all due respect we've had mixed messages from right across the political spectrum both here in Wales, from across the UK and right across the political spectrum. its been a shambles of a farce with no coherent plan between the 4 home nations, with guidance changing by the hour on occasions.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Test and trace has been an unmitigated disaster.

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yes, we've seen before that the health service is incapable of delivering IT projects. you'll recall when Labour spunked billions up the wall on an integrated IT system. This still doesn't answer why WG couldn't have developed their own app.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

These are the things that other countries have done to control the virus.

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yes, and all fell within the remit of WG but they also did nothing, yet the Labour loving acolytes on this forum can't pull their heads our of their arses. Its been a failing on many different fronts but that doesn't suit the Tory bashing narrative.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Cardiff has about 1.5m passengers a year

Heathrow alone has about 1.4m passengers a week.

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what's your point?

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Your claim is that I'm wrong...

So prove it.

Prove that the WAG were in charge of the things I have said the UK government were in charge of.

You always have to be right, so this shouldn't be much of stretch for you :thumbup:

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you made the original claim that the issues were outside the remit of WG. If you can't show that then so be it.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

what's your point?

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:hehe:

This thread could double in size today.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

what's your point?

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I've made it about three times. If you weren't frantically replying to every post as quickly as you can, you might have grasped it.

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

:hehe:

This thread could double in size today.

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Isn't someone waiting for post 7000? Will hit that by 11am the way it's going.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

you made the original claim that the issues were outside the remit of WG. If you can't show that then so be it.

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You'd never say that if you knew you were right. Everybody who has ever spoken to you on here knows you'd be determined to prove it. I'll take this as an admission that you were wrong.

You've gone from Covid is just a health issue and the WAG had control over the response... to... covid effects education and welfare too and the UK govt. were responsible for the Covid response.

Quite a productive hour we've had. I feel that you've learned a valuable lesson this morning. Who said schools were closed, eh?

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

That's a shiithousing response.

We'll try this again.

What do you think (in your own words) Johnson was apologising for?

Yours in anticipation.

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he was saying that he took total responsibility for 100,000 deaths. But you know, I know and the country knows that health is devolved and his responsibilites for health are for England only. Glad to say he did not get into dividing the cake, he took it on in total.

Why on earth have we got a health minister in Wales who keeps on telling us that he makes this decision, that decision, the vaccine programme roll out etc?

Suppose, just suppose that Wales had got really low levels of Covid and a low death rate to go with it compared to other parts of UK. Do you really think Drakeford would say thanks to Boris for doing that. You can't have it both ways.

Health is devolved to the home nations and whatever you infer the responsibility for Wales health rests totally with the Senedd.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

he was saying that he took total responsibility for 100,000 deaths. But you know, I know and the country knows that health is devolved and his responsibilites for health are for England only. Glad to say he did not get into dividing the cake, he took it on in total.

Why on earth have we got a health minister in Wales who keeps on telling us that he makes this decision, that decision, the vaccine programme roll out etc?

Suppose, just suppose that Wales had got really low levels of Covid and a low death rate to go with it compared to other parts of UK. Do you really think Drakeford would say thanks to Boris for doing that. You can't have it both ways.

Health is devolved to the home nations and whatever you infer the responsibility for Wales health rests totally with the Senedd.

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So a prime minister can take full responsibility for ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND DEATHS of his own people, and not resign?

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Originally Posted by lardy

I've made it about three times. If you weren't frantically replying to every post as quickly as you can, you might have grasped it.

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yes, Heathrow has more people, but the vast majority of which remain in England or fly onward outside of the UK. Of the 30,000 or so per week from Cardiff, most stay in Wales. I reckon the pax numbers of people entering Wales from Heathrow and Cardiff each week would be comparable. Bristol might be different

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

You'd never say that if you knew you were right. Everybody who has ever spoken to you on here knows you'd be determined to prove it. I'll take this as an admission that you were wrong.

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I'm really quite busy, its self-assessment season and against my better judgement I'm here. believe what you want to believe.

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

You've gone from Covid is just a health issue and the WAG had control over the response... to... covid effects education and welfare too and the UK govt. were responsible for the Covid response.

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I've said several times that the causes of Covid are a health issue alone. The consequences of Covid go right across society

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Quite a productive hour we've had. I feel that you've learned a valuable lesson this morning. Who said schools were closed, eh?

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i have had a very productive hour, with probably my best billing rate so far in January. I might finish for the rest of the day

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Originally Posted by lardy

So a prime minister can take full responsibility for ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND DEATHS of his own people, and not resign?

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in your world does any of the responsibility belong with (i) Mark Drakeford and (ii) the British people for failing to stay at home and help contain the virus.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

I'm really quite busy, its self-assessment season and against my better judgement I'm here. believe what you want to believe.


I've said several times that the causes of Covid are a health issue alone. The consequences of Covid go right across society

i have had a very productive hour, with probably my best billing rate so far in January. I might finish for the rest of the day

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Enjoy!

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Originally Posted by Feedback

in your world does any of the responsibility belong with (i) Mark Drakeford and (ii) the British people for failing to stay at home and help contain the virus.

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Yes, in my world it does. But the Prime Minister has taken full responsibility.

I don't think there'd be such a long thread about lardy's opinions.

In your world, does the prime minister taking full responsibility for 100k deaths and not resigning for it seem ok?

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

PPE, sporting events, delaying lockdown, playing down the seriousness of the virus ("I was shaking hands with Covid patients" etc") care homes, track and trace.

There's another 7 things off the top of my head.

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Let's unpick this because you are obviously a bit confused.

PPE in Wales is the responsibility of PHW( primarily) and NHS Wales. The fact that we in Wales did not have enough is not the fault of England ( they didn't have enough either.)

Sporting events...Those that foolishly took place in England are well known as was the Stereophonics concert in Cardiff. PHE could have stopped the English events. PHW the Welsh ones as a risk to the population.

Delaying lockdown....Wales Gov could have insisted on lockdown early but didn't. It drifted along with England.

Track and Trace...Wales has it's own strategy published April 2020...To quote them ...'Our aim is to maintain a UK wide approach'

There seems to be a misunderstanding from many on this board that although Wales Gov is 100% responsible for the health of its people, the overall responsibility is with Boris and Westminster. Well that's wrong. Drakeford as first minister plus his ministers are 100% responsible.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Yes, in my world it does. But the Prime Minister has taken full responsibility.

I don't think there'd be such a long thread about lardy's opinions.

In your world, does the prime minister taking full responsibility for 100k deaths and not resigning for it seem ok?

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if he is fully responsible then yes. i don't think he is though, i think the British public have to take their fair share of the blame for not staying home, travelling from place to place, having parties, raves and whatnot.

Yes the government, whether UK or Welsh, could have done better, much better, but there is no point in putting in place what could have been effective measures if the general public don't pay attention and ignore it.

we'd be ****ed in a zombie apocalypse, with many running towards the undead.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

I'm really quite busy, its self-assessment season and against my better judgement I'm here. believe what you want to believe.


I've said several times that the causes of Covid are a health issue alone. The consequences of Covid go right across society

i have had a very productive hour, with probably my best billing rate so far in January. I might finish for the rest of the day

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:hehe:

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

Let's unpick this because you are obviously a bit confused.

PPE in Wales is the responsibility of PHW( primarily) and NHS Wales. The fact that we in Wales did not have enough is not the fault of England ( they didn't have enough either.)

Sporting events...Those that foolishly took place in England are well known as was the Stereophonics concert in Cardiff. PHE could have stopped the English events. PHW the Welsh ones as a risk to the population.

Delaying lockdown....Wales Gov could have insisted on lockdown early but didn't. It drifted along with England.

Track and Trace...Wales has it's own strategy published April 2020...To quote them ...'Our aim is to maintain a UK wide approach'

There seems to be a misunderstanding from many on this board that although Wales Gov is 100% responsible for the health of its people, the overall responsibility is with Boris and Westminster. Well that's wrong. Drakeford as first minister plus his ministers are 100% responsible.

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no no no no no.

Tories bad Labour good.

you should read the memo

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

he was saying that he took total responsibility for 100,000 deaths. But you know, I know and the country knows that health is devolved and his responsibilites for health are for England only. Glad to say he did not get into dividing the cake, he took it on in total.

Why on earth have we got a health minister in Wales who keeps on telling us that he makes this decision, that decision, the vaccine programme roll out etc?

Suppose, just suppose that Wales had got really low levels of Covid and a low death rate to go with it compared to other parts of UK. Do you really think Drakeford would say thanks to Boris for doing that. You can't have it both ways.

Health is devolved to the home nations and whatever you infer the responsibility for Wales health rests totally with the Senedd.

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if wales' response to the pandemic had been "perfect" how much lower do you think the death rate per capita would have been than England, given that many of the measures to address the virus were in the UK government's control.

10% 15%
probably not much higher, given that the UK government failed on border control, test and trace, eat out to help out, etc.

we'll the death rate in Wales is currently 8% lower than England.
despite an older, poorer population in Wales, with more underlying health problems.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

Johnson's a Tory **** and has handled the pandemic in England pretty poorly. That does not excuse Mark Drakeford and his shit show in Wales.

you even say yourself that Drakeford enacted our own firebreak lockdown, so why was Drakeford sat on his arse doing nothing when Johnson wasn't listening to Sage advice. Why didn't Drakeford act? We could have had a lockdown but Drakeford chose not to.

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Er, I explained that the WAG wanted to act, but they were prevented from doing so by a UK Government Treasury decision, so Welsh Government decision making on health was compromised - you're just flailing about as you always do when you have one of your funny turns on here.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

if he is fully responsible then yes. i don't think he is though, i think the British public have to take their fair share of the blame for not staying home, travelling from place to place, having parties, raves and whatnot.

Yes the government, whether UK or Welsh, could have done better, much better, but there is no point in putting in place what could have been effective measures if the general public don't pay attention and ignore it.

we'd be ****ed in a zombie apocalypse, with many running towards the undead.

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Doesn't matter what you think. Doesn't matter what I think.

He has taken full responsibility for a hundred thousand people dying and not resigned.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

if he is fully responsible then yes. i don't think he is though, i think the British public have to take their fair share of the blame for not staying home, travelling from place to place, having parties, raves and whatnot.

Yes the government, whether UK or Welsh, could have done better, much better, but there is no point in putting in place what could have been effective measures if the general public don't pay attention and ignore it.

we'd be ****ed in a zombie apocalypse, with many running towards the undead.

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So do you think the British public should resign?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

So do you think the British public should resign?

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I think feedback thinks the 100000 people who died have only themselves to blame.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

Let's unpick this because you are obviously a bit confused.

PPE in Wales is the responsibility of PHW( primarily) and NHS Wales. The fact that we in Wales did not have enough is not the fault of England ( they didn't have enough either.)

Sporting events...Those that foolishly took place in England are well known as was the Stereophonics concert in Cardiff. PHE could have stopped the English events. PHW the Welsh ones as a risk to the population.

Delaying lockdown....Wales Gov could have insisted on lockdown early but didn't. It drifted along with England.

Track and Trace...Wales has it's own strategy published April 2020...To quote them ...'Our aim is to maintain a UK wide approach'

There seems to be a misunderstanding from many on this board that although Wales Gov is 100% responsible for the health of its people, the overall responsibility is with Boris and Westminster. Well that's wrong. Drakeford as first minister plus his ministers are 100% responsible.

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Ahem...


Who was responsible for stockpiling PPE in the event of a pandemic? Was it PHW?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...0-in-six-years

Wales couldn't lockdown early for a number of reasons. Perhaps the main one being as the UK govt. was responsible for furlough. As a Tory and a constant critic of locking down, surely even you can see that making businesses close without financial support would have caused further devastation to people's lives and livelihoods? The UK govt. played the pandemic down and dragged their feet until the end of March 2020. That's on them!

Also, didn't the Covid bill get passed into law after the lockdown to grant the WAG more powers over Wales' response? Before that, it appears they legally couldn't close the border... Just as Scotland couldn't.

In April 2020 Wales said they'd follow the national approach to track and trace. Ok then... What would you have had them do in that situation and at that time when the UK govt. was going on about a "world beating" system they were implementing and spending fecking billions of pounds on. No, you're not having that one. The money for it was coming from Westminster and they spent it on lining their mate's pockets.

I will concede on the Stereophonics gig as that does seem to be something that could have been stopped. They will have to own that one and the consequences thereof.

After all of that... Which one of us appears to be confused?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Er, I explained that the WAG wanted to act, but they were prevented from doing so by a UK Government Treasury decision, so Welsh Government decision making on health was compromised - you're just flailing about as you always do when you have one of your funny turns on here.

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Why does a Treasury decision stop WG from acting?

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Originally Posted by lardy

Doesn't matter what you think. Doesn't matter what I think.

He has taken full responsibility for a hundred thousand people dying and not resigned.

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then that's up to him, and history will judge him for it.

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Ahem...


Who was responsible for stockpiling PPE in the event of a pandemic? Was it PHW?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...0-in-six-years

Wales couldn't lockdown early for a number of reasons. Perhaps the main one being as the UK govt. was responsible for furlough. As a Tory and a constant critic of locking down, surely even you can see that making businesses close without financial support would have caused further devastation to people's lives and livelihoods? The UK govt. played the pandemic down and dragged their feet until the end of March 2020. That's on them!

Also, didn't the Covid bill get passed into law after the lockdown to grant the WAG more powers over Wales' response? Before that, it appears they legally couldn't close the border... Just as Scotland couldn't.

In April 2020 Wales said they'd follow the national approach to track and trace. Ok then... What would you have had them do in that situation and at that time when the UK govt. was going on about a "world beating" system they were implementing and spending fecking billions of pounds on. No, you're not having that one. The money for it was coming from Westminster and they spent it on lining their mate's pockets.

I will concede on the Stereophonics gig as that does seem to be something that could have been stopped. They will have to own that one and the consequences thereof.

After all of that... Which one of us appears to be confused?

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if the issue was one of public health then WG should have made a decision regardless of the economic consequences. There was no reason WG couldn't have invoked a Welsh lockdown. It is possible to have a lockdown without HMT support. Its crazy to suggest otherwise.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

So do you think the British public should resign?

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is that what you take from my post?

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Originally Posted by Former Labour leader

I think feedback thinks the 100000 people who died have only themselves to blame.

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carry on thinking that. if that's what makes you happy.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

then that's up to him, and history will judge him for it.

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Or..... we could judge him now.

Nobody has ever said that Chamberlain shouldn't have resigned, he should have waited for history to judge him.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

if the issue was one of public health then WG should have made a decision regardless of the economic consequences. There was no reason WG couldn't have invoked a Welsh lockdown. It is possible to have a lockdown without HMT support. Its crazy to suggest otherwise.

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And that's why no one is sayin the WAG is blameless.

But ultimate responsibility lies with the PM of the UK, the government have completely ****ed the whole response from day one, and that's why it became a health crisis.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

is that what you take from my post?

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Yes.