Joey Barton

I stopped reading Tuerto's post when he said "Sol Campbell was 15 years ahead of the game". :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Rock_Flock_of_Five

I stopped reading Tuerto's post when he said "Sol Campbell was 15 years ahead of the game". :hehe:

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As an English central defender, he was way ahead in terms of ability, vision, positioning, passing and understanding when and when not to make a tackle etc. Tremendous player and world class for a period in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

I'm making a comparison between sol and his contemporaries, **** me, it's like pulling teeth, can't you grasp that? Some of them (who got decent managerial jobs) who were top class players as well. Sol Campbell applied for plenty of jobs but had to settle for a club that were on the brink of going out of the league, yet, he had his coaching badges and a top class career behind him, much like gerrard, lampard, Robson etc. None of them started at that level, they were trusted.

Things are changing, especially in media, and that's great. It isn't in football though, as it isn't at managerial level in most industries. When black footballers broke onto the scene, there was a mis trust. Could they handle the cold weather, the physicality of the game, they were only good as skilfull bit part players, they were quick, not to be trusted in positions of influence, etc. The racists were saying those things.

Now that stigma has been banished, the next one is trust in positions of power and decision making. That's my opinion and belief.

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No, you gave a list of contemporaries that suited your narrative. I gave a list of his white contemporaries that also had to start from the bottom. I also gave a few examples of black players who were afforded the same level of entry and as Gerrard, Lampard.etc

Maybe, just maybe, Campbell didn’t inspire enough to be given a job at a higher level. He doesn’t come across the most personable of characters and his loyalty is also questionable after what he did to Spurs. Bryan Robson and Steven Gerrard both cut their teeth managing younger teams at United and Liverpool when they finished playing. Did Campbell show the same appetite when he retired? They were also very inspirational captains and leaders. As colossal a defender as Campbell was I don’t recall him being a vocal leader on the pitch and the same has been said of him in the dressing room by ex team mates.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Correct, and until things change, i'll say the same thing, over and over again. :thumbup:

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Btec Sludge

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Originally Posted by Rock_Flock_of_Five

I stopped reading Tuerto's post when he said "Sol Campbell was 15 years ahead of the game". :hehe:

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:hehe:

He’s only 4 years older than Rio Ferdinand ffs :hehe:

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

No, you gave a list of contemporaries that suited your narrative. I gave a list of his white contemporaries that also had to start from the bottom. I also gave a few examples of black players who were afforded the same level of entry and as Gerrard, Lampard.etc

Maybe, just maybe, Campbell didn’t inspire enough to be given a job at a higher level. He doesn’t come across the most personable of characters and his loyalty is also questionable after what he did to Spurs. Bryan Robson and Steven Gerrard both cut their teeth managing younger teams at United and Liverpool when they finished playing. Did Campbell show the same appetite when he retired? They were also very inspirational captains and leaders. As colossal a defender as Campbell was I don’t recall him being a vocal leader on the pitch and the same has been said of him in the dressing room by ex team mates.

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Sol Campbell is an example. He went to countless interviews and didn't get a job. Maybe he is shit, the point is, that plenty of white players are given the opportunity the show that they're shit, time after time after time........Ex black players don't seem to get much of a look in, especially from youth team upwards. Since the premier league started there has only been 9 black managers. Surely, that's lopsided? I think things will change over the next 15 years or so. This generation aren't just going to take it, and there is much more awareness.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Btec Sludge

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Maybe you should've got a Btec, then maybe you wouldn't have to work for free....:thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Sol Campbell, one of the greatest central defenders to come out of England, world class at one point, ahead of the game by 15 years, got the Macclesfield gig on his 4th attempt at interview process. Macclesfield couldn't even afford a box of tea bags at the time. Could you imagine Steve Bruce, Bryan Robson, John Terry, Frank lampard, Steven Gerrard, Paul Merson, Terry butcher, Gareth Southgate, Gary Neville, Phil Neville, etc, starting at the same level? Neither can I, because they didn't. There's still a mis trust towards black people in positions of power.

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I agree that there was a period of time where Sol was world class, appreciate some here don’t think so, but I do.

However the reason he’s not got the jobs you think he deserves is not because he is black, he’s just not a very credible candidate.

Why great players should automatically become great managers is a view that always mystifies me, should great carpenters become great managers of carpenters? Just because they understand what carpenters do, doesn’t make them great managers - most of us can relate to a time where we have worked for someone who understands the mechanics of a role, but they are not great managers - it’s a different skill set.

Sol talks gibberish and does not come across well in the media at all. Two contemporaries of his, off the top of my head that could have made it would be Mark Bright & Les Ferdinand, but they chose ‘upstairs’ roles.

Don’t always agree with Hartley, but I don’t think there has ever been a better time to be a black manager, if that’s what you want and your credible.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Maybe you should've got a Btec, then maybe you wouldn't have to work for free....:thumbup:

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Ah so rattled you want to start getting personal. I’ll take that as a W. :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by mrbluejay

I agree that there was a period of time where Sol was world class, appreciate some here don’t think so, but I do.

However the reason he’s not got the jobs you think he deserves is not because he is black, he’s just not a very credible candidate.

Why great players should automatically become great managers is a view that always mystifies me, should great carpenters become great managers of carpenters? Just because they understand what carpenters do, doesn’t make them great managers - most of us can relate to a time where we have worked for someone who understands the mechanics of a role, but they are not great managers - it’s a different skill set.

Sol talks gibberish and does not come across well in the media at all. Two contemporaries of his, off the top of my head that could have made it would be Mark Bright & Les Ferdinand, but they chose ‘upstairs’ roles.

Don’t always agree with Hartley, but I don’t think there has ever been a better time to be a black manager, if that’s what you want and your credible.

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You're missing my point, or maybe i didn't explain myself very well, although i appreciate the reply. Sol Campbell is just an example. He may well be a shit manager, coach, not very personable etc. That hasn't stopped plenty of ex top class white players getting job after job though. I would've thought that plenty of ex black players would love the luxury or continuous failure that seems to be the privilege of plenty of ex white footballers.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Ah so rattled you want to start getting personal. I’ll take that as a W. :thumbup:

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In fairness, it took me about 7 posts, you're on it from post number 1. You can have the W, it's the least i can do for you in these troubled times love :hehe: :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Sol Campbell is an example. He went to countless interviews and didn't get a job. Maybe he is shit, the point is, that plenty of white players are given the opportunity the show that they're shit, time after time after time........Ex black players don't seem to get much of a look in, especially from youth team upwards. Since the premier league started there has only been 9 black managers. Surely, that's lopsided? I think things will change over the next 15 years or so. This generation aren't just going to take it, and there is much more awareness.

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Could be because Sol Campbell comes across as a complete wanker.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Well, that's your opinion, it's not mine and countless others. I don't like the man or his politics, as a footballer, he was incredible.

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I don't know who the countless others are but there's a difference between being a top player and being world class.
Off the top of my head...Bobby Moore, Franco Baresi, Beckenbauer, Cannevaro, Gentile, Dessailly were all world class as was John Charles though I never saw him play.
Sol Campbell was a top player but to put him in the same league as those players is laughable.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

You trying to make out Sol Campbell to be some kind of Johan Cruyff football visionary that the game is being deprived of because of the colour of his skin is off the wall odd, even by your standards. You can’t wait to derail any managerial thread with your poor old Sol, being treated unfairly because he’s a black man sob story and it’s tedious as ****.

So a few players started at a higher level which you’ve got a bee in your bonnet about. I’ve already given you many examples of white players on his level, who had to start down on a level he thought was beneath him.

Patrick Vieira has just been given the Palace job without any lower league experience but haven’t heard a peep from you on that. Thierry Henry got given the Monaco job because of his name. Chris Powell and Chris Hughton went straight in at Championship level in fact Hughton went in at PL level as a caretaker manager for Spurs and Newcastle. Darren Moore is another who has shown he wanted to be a manager and been given opportunities.

Ledley King is assistant manager at Spurs. No different to John Terry being assistant manager at Aston Villa.

As for other opportunities there’s never been a better time for black ex footballers to get media work. Darren Bent got his own radio show, Alex Scott is presenting football focus and Jermaine Jenas is even presenting the One Show!!

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I think Alex Scott and Jermaine Jenas are probably better off on the One Show, as it matches their presenting talents.

As for Joey Barton, he is innocent at this stage, until found otherwise. I am surprised his name has been released by the Police.

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Originally Posted by Joe Gillis

No I'm not

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You really are, Sol Campbell was an exceptional defender in his prime

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Originally Posted by Joe Gillis

Sol Campbell was never world class at any point in his career

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Of course he was. Come on.

Sol Campbell was a good player, probably one of the best in this country at for a time.
In world terms, I'm not so sure.

IMHO, to be considered world class, you'd have to have something to show for it.

He never won the Champions League, won nothing at international level (tho he did make team of the tournament a couple of times) but I don't remember him ever being nominated for the Balon d'or.

If you listen to him speaking mind you, he was the GOAT, such an air of superiority, right up there with Garth Crooks :frown:

Re the OP, bloke's an arsehole.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

I know that. The point Is that a black player with the Same form as Barton ain't getting a manager's job, and he wouldn't get a gig on talk radio or a column of in a newspaper, or have a bit of a cult following on twitter.

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I'm not disputing that but that doesn't mean Barton got the job "Because he's white"

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Black footballers make up to 35% of all footballers in the professional game, that doesn't transmit to management appointments, not even close. Why is that? This isn't a football problem either. Black people are not represented in managerial roles or at boardroom level. You reckon that there's no racism at play?

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Are you suggesting that black people in whatever profession should have management or boardroom positions in proportion to their numbers in the said industry, regardless of their ability? That percentages are more important than ability?
To me that sounds like a recipe for failure.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Are you suggesting that black people in whatever profession should have management or boardroom positions in proportion to their numbers in the said industry, regardless of their ability? That percentages are more important than ability?
To me that sounds like a recipe for failure.

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People should be given positions based on their ability, that is true. Do you think black people are less able to be in boardrooms? I mean, is it not a bit odd that there are:

• No black Chairmen
• No Black CEOs
• No black CFOs

in any of the top 100 companies in the UK?

Also, isn't it a bit odd that only 3.4% of these positions are held by ethnic minorities in 2021. The same percentage as 2014?

Yes, people should be picked on ability but surely you would expect to see a similar percentage of black people in dugouts as you see on a pitch? Similarly, you would expect to see a similar percentage of black people in boardrooms as you see on the payroll. I mean, that isn't going for percentages, but it's striking that the percentages are vastly different at top levels of business compared to the rest of the business isn't it? Maybe it isn't striking to you?

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Originally Posted by Allez Allez Allez

People should be given positions based on their ability, that is true. Do you think black people are less able to be in boardrooms? I mean, is it not a bit odd that there are:

• No black Chairmen
• No Black CEOs
• No black CFOs

in any of the top 100 companies in the UK?

Also, isn't it a bit odd that only 3.4% of these positions are held by ethnic minorities in 2021. The same percentage as 2014?

Yes, people should be picked on ability but surely you would expect to see a similar percentage of black people in dugouts as you see on a pitch? Similarly, you would expect to see a similar percentage of black people in boardrooms as you see on the payroll. I mean, that isn't going for percentages, but it's striking that the percentages are vastly different at top levels of business compared to the rest of the business isn't it? Maybe it isn't striking to you?

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Much better than i could've put it :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Much better than i could've put it :thumbup:

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But none of that translates to your statement that Barton only got the job because he is white. How many black people applied for it ffs?

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

But none of that translates to your statement that Barton only got the job because he is white. How many black people applied for it ffs?

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That's a different question to the one you asked.

I'll put your question back here.

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Originally Posted by Gammon

Are you suggesting that black people in whatever profession should have management or boardroom positions in proportion to their numbers in the said industry, regardless of their ability? That percentages are more important than ability?

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Originally Posted by Allez Allez Allez

People should be given positions based on their ability, that is true. Do you think black people are less able to be in boardrooms? I mean, is it not a bit odd that there are:

• No black Chairmen
• No Black CEOs
• No black CFOs

in any of the top 100 companies in the UK?

Also, isn't it a bit odd that only 3.4% of these positions are held by ethnic minorities in 2021. The same percentage as 2014?

Yes, people should be picked on ability but surely you would expect to see a similar percentage of black people in dugouts as you see on a pitch? Similarly, you would expect to see a similar percentage of black people in boardrooms as you see on the payroll. I mean, that isn't going for percentages, but it's striking that the percentages are vastly different at top levels of business compared to the rest of the business isn't it? Maybe it isn't striking to you?

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In the face of facts, it is possible that the goalposts will be moved. :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Allez Allez Allez

That's a different question to the one you asked.

I'll put your question back here.

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i:wave: