Is this where Farage could surprise Labour, Conservatives and pollsters?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

There has always been a element of people who dislike immigrants , foreigners, asylum seekers

And that element is bigger than it has been for many years

It's very naive of you to suggest otherwise

I find these comments from you and your defence of farage very odd

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You aren't listening to what I'm saying.

You are saying (with no evidence) that dislike of asylum seekers, immigrants etc is getting worse. It isn't actually, but I cant stop you saying that

You are then saying that anyone who thinks that immigration could possibly be too high is driven by hating those people.

But that's nonsense. If you think class sizes are too big, it doesn't mean you hate children. If you think the roads are too busy, it doesn't mean you hate the people in cars.

That's my point. It's a perfectly reasonable belief to think that 700,000 a year, or indeed the post 2004 normally of 300,000 odd a year is far too high.

There is nothing wrong with thinking that, and plenty of evidence that it isn't really making society better.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

You aren't listening to what I'm saying.

You are saying (with no evidence) that dislike of asylum seekers, immigrants etc is getting worse. It isn't actually, but I cant stop you saying that

You are then saying that anyone who thinks that immigration could possibly be too high is driven by hating those people.

But that's nonsense. If you think class sizes are too big, it doesn't mean you hate children. If you think the roads are too busy, it doesn't mean you hate the people in cars.

That's my point. It's a perfectly reasonable belief to think that 700,000 a year, or indeed the post 2004 normally of 300,000 odd a year is far too high.

There is nothing wrong with thinking that, and plenty of evidence that it isn't really making society better.

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You are a white non immigrant

What do you know about the level of dislike towards immigrants?

The fact that reform ...who are a one trick pony with regard to immigration .....are hitting 10 to 15 percent .....is a clear indication that there is sadly an increasing level of people prepared to vote for an anti immigration party

I know plenty of people who are concerned about immigration but vote Labour , Plaid and even the tories

But 10 percent voting for reform ?

Do you think they are voting reform for their policy on green energy ?

Are you just arguing for the sake of it ?

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Originally Posted by Dave Blue

He’s a nut case.

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Farage or JamesWales?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

You are a white non immigrant

What do you know about the level of dislike towards immigrants?

The fact that reform ...who are a one trick pony with regard to immigration .....are hitting 10 to 15 percent .....is a clear indication that there is sadly an increasing level of people prepared to vote for an anti immigration party

I know plenty of people who are concerned about immigration but vote Labour , Plaid and even the tories

But 10 percent voting for reform ?

Do you think they are voting reform for their policy on green energy ?

Are you just arguing for the sake of it ?

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And that's the flimsy argument you rely upon isn't it.

Anyone who thinks immigration is too high? Racist!

And then you point to that as evidence of rising Racism.

It's a cycle based on lies.

There's plenty of studies that show that racial hatred in the UK is much less than other countries and not high.

I do think race relations is a tinderbox and could get worse, but I think it is your views that make that far more likely, as you don't seem to care a jot for the reality of absorbing a large number of people. Home owner in leafy Cowbridge, yeah?

The irony on all this is that you are one of a handful of genuinely hate filled people on here. You just think that's okay cos you align with your own views.

What are your views on immigration in terms of numbers? Anything goes? Some controls?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

And that's the flimsy argument you rely upon isn't it.

Anyone who thinks immigration is too high? Racist!

And then you point to that as evidence of rising Racism.

It's a cycle based on lies.

There's plenty of studies that show that racial hatred in the UK is much less than other countries and not high.

I do think racial conflict is a tinderbox and could get worse, but I think it is your views that make that far more likely.

The irony on all this is that you are one of a handful of genuinely hate filled people on here. You just think that's okay cos you align with your own views.

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You carry on defending farage and trying to convince people he's not a racist

You are boxing yourself in but there's no telling you

Get on with it

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

And that's the flimsy argument you rely upon isn't it.

Anyone who thinks immigration is too high? Racist!

And then you point to that as evidence of rising Racism.

It's a cycle based on lies.

There's plenty of studies that show that racial hatred in the UK is much less than other countries and not high.

I do think race relations is a tinderbox and could get worse, but I think it is your views that make that far more likely, as you don't seem to care a jot for the reality of absorbing a large number of people. Home owner in leafy Cowbridge, yeah?

The irony on all this is that you are one of a handful of genuinely hate filled people on here. You just think that's okay cos you align with your own views.

What are your views on immigration in terms of numbers? Anything goes? Some controls?

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Adding nonsense as you go along isn't going to help

You said yesterday that because farage had a foreign girlfriend he couldn't be a racist

That was the end of the line I am afraid

You should withdraw from the theatre of conflict really but you just can't help yourself

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Adding nonsense as you go along isn't going to help

You said yesterday that because farage had a foreign girlfriend he couldn't be a racist

That was the end of the line I am afraid

You should withdraw from the theatre of conflict really but you just can't help yourself

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I think it's pretty unlikely that someone would have kids with and date someone they hate.

You are of that branch of left wing politics who sits comfortably with zero offering on this debate other than to call people racist (quite a serious offence) despite the fear that may cause people and with no evidence whilst simultaneously having the complete inability to fathom that dealing with a large number of people creates issues.

It's clear now, you policy is to offer nothing except to shout racist at people.

If so that's fine, but perhaps you can go beyond that and explain what your more broad approach to immigration is and the unprecedentedly high numbers of recent years?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Fair question. And not an easy one to answer.

It's not about what's acceptable though, it's about what's optimum to make our society better for those who live here and those who will, balancing the benefits and costs.

A good way to think of it is that we would all agree that the country can seamlessly accommodate one extra person a year. We can all also agree than 10million a year would create serious issues, therefore I think everyone would accept the answer lies somewhere in between.

For me it has to be far lower. In particular it needs to be lower than how quickly we can provide the services and facilities needed. 700,000 is the size of a very large city, which has hundreds of schools, doctors surgeries, hospital beds, parks, motorways, train stations, shops, pubs, all the rest of the things that a good society needs.

Most of those things, esp housing and transport require funding, planning and building that takes the best part of a decade. Doctors surgeries and schools probably take five years. As such we are forever playing catch up and the collective quality of life has been falling and WILL continue to fall at such high levels.

I would suggest around 75,000-100,000, focused where needed coupled with a mass reimagining of the education system to train people for the vocational jobs needed so that we are less reliant.

Very few people "dislike" other groups of people. It's about being sensible and grown up in terms of dealing with what is a profoundly important issue.

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Labour have ambitious plans to build 1.5 million houses in the first and only term (they won't) so if we carry on at this rate there will be a much bigger housing crisis, how about a massive reduction in net migration so we can sort one problem at a time?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

You are a white non immigrant

What do you know about the level of dislike towards immigrants?

The fact that reform ...who are a one trick pony with regard to immigration .....are hitting 10 to 15 percent .....is a clear indication that there is sadly an increasing level of people prepared to vote for an anti immigration party

I know plenty of people who are concerned about immigration but vote Labour , Plaid and even the tories

But 10 percent voting for reform ?

Do you think they are voting reform for their policy on green energy ?

Are you just arguing for the sake of it ?

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Come on Sludge stop being stupid now, you don't know what colour or race he is and you don't know his personal views or if he or Farage is racist, people can be concerned about the state of the country and feel that mass immigration is adding to the problem without being racist.

Most of Europe and the US are concerned with the higher numbers of immigration and are reviewing their policies and opinions based on genuine concern for failing services and their ability to grow services and infrastructure at the same rate.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I think it's pretty unlikely that someone would have kids with and date someone they hate.

You are of that branch of left wing politics who sits comfortably with zero offering on this debate other than to call people racist (quite a serious offence) despite the fear that may cause people and with no evidence whilst simultaneously having the complete inability to fathom that dealing with a large number of people creates issues.

It's clear now, you policy is to offer nothing except to shout racist at people.

If so that's fine, but perhaps you can go beyond that and explain what your more broad approach to immigration is and the unprecedentedly high numbers of recent years?

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I have no idea if you are a racist and don't really care


I think your continued argument that farage has been out with foreign women so can't be a racist is absolutely pathetic and laughable

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

Come on Sludge stop being stupid now, you don't know what colour or race he is and you don't know his personal views or if he or Farage is racist, people can be concerned about the state of the country and feel that mass immigration is adding to the problem without being racist.

Most of Europe and the US are concerned with the higher numbers of immigration and are reviewing their policies and opinions based on genuine concern for failing services and their ability to grow services and infrastructure at the same rate.

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He's white

I have no idea if he's a racist and don't care

He's defending farage who most certainly is

I couldn't care less either way

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

He's white

I have no idea if he's a racist and don't care

He's defending farage who most certainly is

I couldn't care less either way

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How do you know?

He has no idea of my heritage but he is the kind of guy who likes to label people based on various attributes so no doubt he would like to know the angle and length of my nose if he could and then use it to make a load of generalisations.

Hes also offered no opinion of substance on this apart to label various people racist with no evidence for what is essentially a criminal offence.

How many times do we have to ask your opinion about high immigration and for you to ignore it and make wild accusations?

Just answer the question mun!

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

How do you know?

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Call it intuition

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

He has no idea of my heritage but he is the kind of guy who likes to label people based on various attributes so no doubt he would like to know the angle and length of my nose if he could and then use it to make a load of generalisations.

Hes also offered no opinion of substance on this apart to label various people racist with no evidence for what is essentially a criminal offence.

How many times do we have to ask your opinion about high immigration and for you to ignore it and make wild accusations?

Just answer the question mun!

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I don't care

The biggest criminal offence on here at the moment is you trying to argue that farage , or anyone else , who goes out with a foreigner can't possibly be racist

https://youtu.be/usV9RhxZhVs?si=tITr7VFYyRRY4ss9

Farage is the boss of this lot

Well I never

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I don't care

The biggest criminal offence on here at the moment is you trying to argue that farage , or anyone else , who goes out with a foreigner can't possibly be racist

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The thread started on a fairly sensible tone to try and discuss a serious topic. One you may not care about, but one that many, often less fortunate, do.

But all you can do is throw the pretty serious accusation of racism around with no evidence to back it up.

And when someone asks you a sensible question, you fail to answer it at every single turn.

The risk is that people like you may still have their fingers in their ears in two years time and people may well see that Labour aren't the answer and you risk them turning elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

The thread started on a fairly sensible tone to try and discuss a serious topic. One you may not care about, but one that many, often less fortunate, do.

But all you can do is throw the pretty serious accusation of racism around with no evidence to back it up.

And when someone asks you a sensible question, you fail to answer it at every single turn.

The risk is that people like you may still have their fingers in their ears in two years time and people may well see that Labour aren't the answer and you risk them turning elsewhere.

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Farage is a racist

Tell him to sue me

I am not interested in debating anything with you, especially farage

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Farage is a racist

Tell him to sue me

I am not interested in debating anything with you, especially farage

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No it's pretty clear you aren't interested in debating the topic in hand.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

The thread started on a fairly sensible tone to try and discuss a serious topic. One you may not care about, but one that many, often less fortunate, do.

But all you can do is throw the pretty serious accusation of racism around with no evidence to back it up.

And when someone asks you a sensible question, you fail to answer it at every single turn.

The risk is that people like you may still have their fingers in their ears in two years time and people may well see that Labour aren't the answer and you risk them turning elsewhere.

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You'll find people that pay tax are concerned about these matters, people who take hand outs much less so, although they should because one day it could also affect their handouts.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Farage is a racist

Tell him to sue me

I am not interested in debating anything with you, especially farage

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‘He was a deeply unembarrassed racist’: Nigel Farage, by those who have known him:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...have-known-him

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Originally Posted by jon1959

‘He was a deeply unembarrassed racist’: Nigel Farage, by those who have known him:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...have-known-him

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It started off with trade

Then laws

Then immigrants

We left Europe

Things havnt changed

Back to immigrants

I think reform voters are like spoilt little kids

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Originally Posted by jon1959

‘He was a deeply unembarrassed racist’: Nigel Farage, by those who have known him:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...have-known-him

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Well if the guardian says it it must be true!

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Well if the guardian says it it must be true!

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That isn't a Guardian editorial - it is a piece quoting former Dulwich College teachers and pupils, but mainly UKIP people who knew Farage very well.

Some of them are Farage fans. Clearly a lot (including one who shared his bed) are not.

Still, if you are not interested in informed views on his history, attitudes and behaviours, you can just not read it. Easy!

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Originally Posted by jon1959

That isn't a Guardian editorial - it is a piece quoting former Dulwich College teachers and pupils, but mainly UKIP people who knew Farage very well.

Some of them are Farage fans. Clearly a lot (including one who shared his bed) are not.

Still, if you are not interested in informed views on his history, attitudes and behaviours, you can just not read it. Easy!

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I think you can appreciate the nuance on how different people define things Jon given you have consistently defended various chants etc and a certain leader that many have called racist.

I think the reality is this is a deflection, and it's gone on from years. This isn't the 70s. This isnt the era of windrush. Immigration now sees about a decades worth of people arrive in a year.

And none of you explain how we deal with that, and use slurs as a defence mechanism for that.

It doesn't work.