Runcorn by election.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

‘A win is a win’, but ‘A votes and vote share collapse is still a collapse’

If Labour are ‘relatively content’ they are in an even bigger hole of their own making than it looked like yesterday.

Starmerism is cowardly, toxic to Labour’s natural base let alone the wider electorate, and delusional.

The only thing this right wing cabal can hang on to is that the Tories are in an even worse state. But as the former Member for the Eighteenth Century, Jacob Rees-Mogg helpfully explained, there is almost no policy difference between that Tories and Reform - it is mostly about personalities (and a bit more explicit racism)!

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The Labour Party is bust now

Best to cobble together a sort of popular front rainbow alliance type movement and try and muddle through

He's absolutely useless and so are most of his team

I don't think any of them have got a clue and look so amateurish especially Lammy , Rayner and Streeting

With such a big majority and lots of new MPs backing him up its unlikely Starmer will walk the plank but it would be great if he did

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

If I was going to vote for them I certainly would!

But then again how many Tory, Labour etc voters have actually read the policy documents from those parties!(

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My point is that whether Reform say this or not, they are seen by the people that vote for them as the party who will take a hard line against immigration. And that's all that matters to their voters it would seem.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

‘A win is a win’, but ‘A votes and vote share collapse is still a collapse’

If Labour are ‘relatively content’ they are in an even bigger hole of their own making than it looked like yesterday.

Starmerism is cowardly, toxic to Labour’s natural base let alone the wider electorate, and delusional.

The only thing this right wing cabal can hang on to is that the Tories are in an even worse state. But as the former Member for the Eighteenth Century, Jacob Rees-Mogg helpfully explained, there is almost no policy difference between that Tories and Reform - it is mostly about personalities (and a bit more explicit racism)!

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Yeah tbf that was this morning, since then Labours results in the local elections have got progressively worse. Worse than I thought actually. I do think they will have acted out a scenario where they lost all the mayoral seats though

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The average reform voter doesn't care about the fine details

But they will if they realise that the fragile state of the NHS will be dead as a dodo under farage

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The average reform voter is the average Labour voter from about 15 years ago. I don't think any party has supporters more or less engaged in the minutiae of local government. In my experience previously few really understand the process, unfortunately

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

The average reform voter is the average Labour voter from about 15 years ago. I don't think any party has supporters more or less engaged in the minutiae of local government. In my experience previously few really understand the process, unfortunately

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that isn't really true - reform have taken more voters from the tories than they have Labour

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Originally Posted by Rjk

that isn't really true - reform have taken more voters from the tories than they have Labour

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But how many of those Tories were Labour until 2019 and would with a popular government have returned to them?

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Originally Posted by Rjk

that isn't really true - reform have taken more voters from the tories than they have Labour

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Yeah I know, although in many parts of the country it's the other way around. The rural south has shifted more Tory to Lib Dem too.

Either way, stereotypes don't really fit.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

He wants an argument doesn’t he. I’d also be fascinated to know what Reform’s policies are, much like the Brexit Party’s probably, but then what did they stand for? We know Farage doesn’t like immigrants and the EU and loves money in his pocket and Donald Trump but that’s about it really.

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Shirley you must see, and using this current lot more than any other mob, having a manifesto means jack shit. ? I know those who went before didn't bother with implementation of their manifestos either !!!.

I know and work with a load of tradesman, all well paid, mostly Labour voters but the odd Tory (the electricians usually) and every single one I’ve spoken too in the last 3 months said they plan to vote for reform. People have had an absolute guts full of the usual two, the alternative might not be better but who knows….make Britain great again eh? :hehe:

We shouldn't be surprised about the rise of a right wing party here, as they seem to have been on the increase across many countries.

I suppose looking from the outside it's tempting to think that these are the same shysters who told us that Brexit would be a brilliant idea, whereas it has mostly been a shitshow while a lot of these people have managed to line their own pockets from it - why would anyone fall for the same shite twice?

but the underlying issues that led to brexit are still there. its harder for regular people to make a decent living while the rich get richer - and they don't think that the status quo of labour or tory will ever change this, so its a protest vote.

I think a reform government would be an absolute disaster for the working man though - low tax and cut backs to public services. Austerity +

Hull and East Yorkshire Mayor..

Reform: 48,491
LibDems: 37,510
Tories: 21,393
Labour: 18,568
Green: 5,049
Yorkshire Party: 4,372

Things have definitely changed. Not just today, it's been changing for years but accelerated today. It used to be people would turn to the Lib Dems as protest but there are now other viable options that don't count as wasted votes.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

The average reform voter is the average Labour voter from about 15 years ago. I don't think any party has supporters more or less engaged in the minutiae of local government. In my experience previously few really understand the process, unfortunately

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The labour party have seen plenty of former voters sway to reform

But it is undoubtedly the conservatives who have suffered most from the rise of reform

Absolutely no question of that and backed up by Prof Jon Curtice

The question is rather academic now as its how the centre and left deal with the prevailing situation.....a right wing vote beyond the Tories....of probably 20 percent

I personally think that's the problem ....these people think that reform speaks for them and they now have a party to vote for

They won't be coming back to the main parties and even farage being caught dressed as Adolf Hitler won't bother them

So merge the centre and left and defeat the right wing at the ballot box by sheer numbers or the country will end up like America

The people I am aware of that vote reform are wannabee trump creeps anyway so it's par for the course

Reform are not going to be defeated by reasoned argument and that's where Starmer , The Liberals , Traditional Tories etc are absolutely wasting their time

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The labour party have seen plenty of former voters sway to reform

But it is undoubtedly the conservatives who have suffered most from the rise of reform

Absolutely no question of that and backed up by Prof Jon Curtice

The question is rather academic now as its how the centre and left deal with the prevailing situation.....a right wing vote beyond the Tories....of probably 20 percent

I personally think that's the problem ....these people think that reform speaks for them and they now have a party to vote for

They won't be coming back to the main parties and even farage being caught dressed as Adolf Hitler won't bother them

So merge the centre and left and defeat the right wing at the ballot box by sheer numbers or the country will end up like America

The people I am aware of that vote reform are wannabee trump creeps anyway so it's par for the course

Reform are not going to be defeated by reasoned argument and that's where Starmer , The Liberals , Traditional Tories etc are absolutely wasting their time

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You got so close to posting that without mentioning Trump or Adolf Hitler! Only two paragraphs and you would have been there! Other than that a fine example of reasoned argument 😂

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

He's seems more European than most in his choice of partners. He parted from his wife and subsequently co-habited with his present squeeze, a French politician by the name of Ferrari.

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She's playing fast and loose with our dear Nige

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Originally Posted by stevo

Ah, but have their voters actually read it?

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I'm not sure most of their voters are capable of reading it.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

We shouldn't be surprised about the rise of a right wing party here, as they seem to have been on the increase across many countries.

I suppose looking from the outside it's tempting to think that these are the same shysters who told us that Brexit would be a brilliant idea, whereas it has mostly been a shitshow while a lot of these people have managed to line their own pockets from it - why would anyone fall for the same shite twice?

but the underlying issues that led to brexit are still there. its harder for regular people to make a decent living while the rich get richer - and they don't think that the status quo of labour or tory will ever change this, so its a protest vote.

I think a reform government would be an absolute disaster for the working man though - low tax and cut backs to public services. Austerity +

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Reform would be Tories on steroids but without even a semblance of administrative nous. These "hard working" tradesmen types who are attracted to Farage like flies to shit will be seriously disappointed or worse if Nige's mob ever blustered their way into power.

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

But how many of those Tories were Labour until 2019 and would with a popular government have returned to them?

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About an hour ago the seat changes were Reform +480, Libs +54?, Greens +? Labour -124, Tories -377! Given that the incumbent government always gets a hammering in these protest votes, I'd say the situation is far more serious for the Tories. The Libs and Greens would have picked up Labour votes in the main but some have understandably drifted to Reform. But the Tories would have lost the bulk of their 377 seats to Reform, with maybe a couple going to the Libs. Starmer's government rightly took a bloody nosey from it's core vote but the Tories' loss is existential. They have lost all relevance.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Reform would be Tories on steroids but without even a semblance of administrative nous. These "hard working" tradesmen types who are attracted to Farage like flies to shit will be seriously disappointed or worse if Nige's mob ever blustered their way into power.

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Sounds like they are seriously disappointed as it is though.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Sounds like they are seriously disappointed as it is though.

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Quite so and they should be. This may prove the end of two party politics as we knew it. I also think in any future elections tactical voting might work against Nige. Lots of One Nation Tories will want to scupper them. The political roadmap has never been quite so blurred.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Hull and East Yorkshire Mayor..

Reform: 48,491
LibDems: 37,510
Tories: 21,393
Labour: 18,568
Green: 5,049
Yorkshire Party: 4,372

Things have definitely changed. Not just today, it's been changing for years but accelerated today. It used to be people would turn to the Lib Dems as protest but there are now other viable options that don't count as wasted votes.

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For Farage in the 20s, read Mosley in the 30s, the motivation behind their parties is as old as the hills. In times of economic turmoil, populist grifters come to the fore offering all things to all men, and women.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

For Farage in the 20s, read Mosley in the 30s, the motivation behind their parties is as old as the hills. In times of economic turmoil, populist grifters come to the fore offering all things to all men, and women.

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Earlier on today you admitted you had no idea what their policies were, now a few hours later you are confidently comparing them to the National Union of Fascists from nearly 100 years ago

Give it a bloody rest. Just accept that people are frustrated and want change, the comparison is utterly ridiculous and you have zero evidence to back it up do you?

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Quite so and they should be. This may prove the end of two party politics as we knew it. I also think in any future elections tactical voting might work against Nige. Lots of One Nation Tories will want to scupper them. The political roadmap has never been quite so blurred.

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I agree, very interesting times. Reform now have to exist and deliver in the cut and thrust of service delivery. Have a clear majority on some councils which makes it easier but won't be easy at all and will come across the same problems any other party does

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Earlier on today you admitted you had no idea what their policies were, now a few hours later you are confidently comparing them to the National Union of Fascists from nearly 100 years ago

Give it a bloody rest. Just accept that people are frustrated and want change, the comparison is utterly ridiculous and you have zero evidence to back it up do you?

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You don’t half go off on one when you see what you think is a comparison between modern politicians and fascism don’t you. I’m comparing Farage and Mosley the people not talking about fascism - even if Farage does have a very dubious past on that score.

You’re trying to make out that we’re in dramatically changing times, I disagree because so much of what we’re seeing now is like what was happening nearly a century ago - my second sentence in my previous post emphasises what I’m trying to say, we’re not seeing anything new, it’s been around for centuries.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

You don’t half go off on one when you see what you think is a comparison between modern politicians and fascism don’t you. I’m comparing Farage and Mosley the people not talking about fascism - even if Farage does have a very dubious past on that score.

You’re trying to make out that we’re in dramatically changing times, I disagree because so much of what we’re seeing now is like what was happening nearly a century ago - my second sentence in my previous post emphasises what I’m trying to say, we’re not seeing anything new, it’s been around for centuries.

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I don't go off on one, I just think it's a pretty ignorant comment and absolutely stunningly insulting to people. Reform have far more in common with any party from the early 90s more than anything from before that party.

Of course new parties come along, but you don't need to compare them to leaders of fascist parties. Its just absurd and tiresome and doesn't do the party(ies) you support any favours whatsoever. In fact such comparisons is part of the push factor away from them.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I don't go off on one, I just think it's a pretty ignorant comment and absolutely stunningly insulting to people. Reform have far more in common with any party from the early 90s more than anything from before that party.

Of course new parties come along, but you don't need to compare them to leaders of fascist parties. Its just absurd and tiresome and doesn't do the party(ies) you support any favours whatsoever. In fact such comparisons is part of the push factor away from them.

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You do go off on one - have a look at the things you’ve said to me in your last two posts. Whether Farage is a Fascist or not is something which is up for debate (my view is that the modern version of the man is not), but it’s far from absurd or tiresome for anyone to ask the question of him because it’s certainly not a straightforward black and white issue.

By the way, what party from the early 90s does Reform have so much in common with?