That's a very powerful piece I reckon, made all the more so by what she says in the closing paragraphs.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
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That's a very powerful piece I reckon, made all the more so by what she says in the closing paragraphs.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
The problem is that the state military is playing a role in harbouring and sheltering a rogue state committing ethnic cleansing, and may have been on the way to assist Israel in a full-out, completely unsubstantiated and unjustified war against Iran. And yet Palestine Action took an action that ultimately harmed nobody, let alone seriously. It was restrained, and yet this is the disproportionate reaction from the government.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
And yes, it does have a lot to do with post WW2 and Thatcher. From the mid-late forties to the seventies, a lot of initiatives were introduced that ushered in an age of economic prosperity and well-being for the citizenry, a lot of which began getting revoked under Thatcher and the neoliberal leaders that followed her. The result is an asset-stripping from the citizenry, and we're now being told there's a possibility we could be involved in fighting on the behalf of a nation conducting a genocide. You can't just give something to the citizenry, and then take it away without expecting them to be furious, and it has disaster written all over it. The corruption in the British and American governments is at a level not seen since the Gilded Age, and this moral crisis and demand we must respect the nation conducting a genocide is the cherry on top the shit sundae. By all standards something restrained from Palestine Action has resulted in them being declared terrorists on the same level as Al-Qaeda and ISIS, which is beyond ridiculous.
People are furious, and this lack of engagement in critiquing Israel's actions in strong enough terms could be absolutely devastating, both morally and structurally.
https://www.thecanary.co/trending/20...dmarsdn8syijsb
For anyone who enjoys Grade A hypocrisy, read (above) the statement from the Israeli Embassy in London. Wow!
Are you saying it's bad to call for the death of people then?Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
If so, our legal system should be intervening where such calls are made in this country then?
Just awful!Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...errorist-group
MPs have voted to proscribe Palestine Action as a terrorist organisation despite concerns that the move could risk criminalising legitimate protest.
The draft order to amend the Terrorism Act 2000 and proscribe the group, laid by the home secretary, Yvette Cooper, passed the Commons on Wednesday by 385 votes to 26.
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After the vote, a Palestine Action spokesperson said: “We are confident that this unlawful order will be overturned. As United Nations experts have made clear, spraying red paint and disrupting the British-based operations of Israel’s largest weapons firm, Elbit Systems, is not terrorism.
“The terrorism and war crimes are being committed by Israel against the Palestinian people – armed and enabled by this government.”
Palestine Action is seeking a legal challenge against the government’s move to proscribe it. A hearing is expected on Friday to decide whether the ban can be temporarily blocked, pending further proceedings to decide whether a legal challenge can be brought.
On Tuesday the lawyers group Network for Police Monitoring and the Haldane Society of Socialist Lawyers had warned the home secretary in two separate letters that proscribing Palestine Action would conflate protest and terrorism. The letters collectively were signed by hundreds of lawyers and by UN experts.
Several UN special rapporteurs said they had contacted the UK government to say that “acts of protest that damage property, but are not intended to kill or injure people, should not be treated as terrorism”.
The proscription order will go to the House of Lords and final approval is expected within days.
Yasmine Ahmed, the UK director of Human Rights Watch, said: “The use of counter-terrorism legislation to proscribe Palestine Action is a grave abuse of state power and a terrifying escalation in this government’s crusade to curtail protest rights. The idea that a non-violent protest group could be classed in the same category as Islamic State or al-Qaida is utterly preposterous and sets an incredibly dangerous precedent.
“Politicians should not be wielding the power of the state to protect corporate interests and silence legitimate non-violent protest.”
MPs have voted to proscribe them.
https://news.sky.com/story/mps-appro...ation-13391291
Sad times
An utter disgrace. I'm ashamed of my elected representativesQuote:
Originally Posted by stevo
Luckily there are still many ways to peacefully protest that don't involve damaging military equipment and leaving the taxpayer to pick up the tab.Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo
Imagine if everyone acted in this way? Whether they should be proscribed or not I don't know, but they presumably knew it could come and ignored it and either way a line was crossed.
They may think they are above the law but they arent and they can protest like the rest of us in a peaceful and democratic manner.
Oh, give it a rest will you? Criminal damage does not equal terrorism, whichever way you look at it. Can we just agree on that?Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Seems like it does when it is purposefully deployed against the defence forces of a country to try and force a political change.Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo
They'll just have to protest like everyone else going forward.
Protest just like everyone else? Well that's all OK then..... No risk of draconian police suppression of protest if no red paint is applied!Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ce-law-arrests
Police in London have been accused of abusing their powers to curb protest after research found that less than 3% of arrests for conspiracy to cause a public nuisance in the past five years resulted in a prosecution.
The research also found an almost tenfold rise in the number of arrests in the capital for the offence, most commonly used to target activists, since 2019 when Extinction Rebellion set off a wave of climate activism.
Campaigners said the findings showed police misusing the law to shut down protest with a power that allowed them to intimidate protesters by placing them in pretrial custody, impose onerous bail conditions and collect their DNA and fingerprints.
Hopefully this stupidity is reversed soon - or if not that a big political price is paid!
I think it's highly unlikely to be reserved. I am sure they score less highly on the violent rhetoric scale as the ridiculously named "Maniacs Murder Cult" (who were also proscribed) but no doubt higher in the country at least on the direct action part.
You can't have a policy of directly damaging military vehicles and expect to get away from it. It's not hard to see how this crosses a threshold.
So yeah, I doubt the public will be clamouring to reverse this.
The paint chuckers didn’t ‘get away with it’.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
They were arrested and charged with criminal damage.
As other paint chuckers and lock gluers have been.
But from next week they face prosecution as terrorists and sentences that could be longer than some rapists and killers.
The Israel lobby is overjoyed.
The Labour government has debased itself even further.
"Israel lobby". You make it all sound like that age old grand conspiracy again! You can't cause millions of pounds worth of damage to the countries military equipment. It's not hard to see how that could be considered terrorism, as its effectively threatening the defence of the nation unless the govt agrees with their aims.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
As stated, plenty more ways to protest.
There is certainly an Israel lobby - and it is in plain sight and very vocal, here in the UK, in the USA (AIPAC etc), and other countries.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
It is in the media, in Parliament (Labour and Tory Friends Of Israel), 'We Believe In Israel' headed by the 'Zionist Shitlord' (his words) Luke Akehurst MP, the Israeli Embassy, in the form of explicit lobby groups and donors who seek and get political influence.
Most of the Israel Lobby is not Jewish. Many of the main opponents of the Israel Lobby are Jewish.
It is not 'that age old grand conspiracy' theory which demonised Jewish people. This is a network of organisations and 'influencers' who promote their view of the interests of Israel, seek to maintain funding, arms and diplomatic cover, and work to silence or undermine opponents of Israeli policy and war crimes (many of those opponents are Jewish!).
You may not find it hard to see how criminal damage could be considered terrorism. I do. Where is the 'terror' apart from maybe terror of publicity about UK complicity in the Gaza genocide or exposure of the arms to Israel ecosystem?
Without straying too far into the stupidity of their particular action. What is your latest assessment of the damage caused by this paricular incident? I have seen some really poor stuff you linked to LBC talking about £55m or £30m by some subby expanding on a Times article. Elsewhere there are reports that at least one of the planes has flown to a Scottish base seemingly unhindered.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
A more recent Sky report talks about an assessment of £7m. Other reports talk about the loss being to the defense industry rather than the country because the planes in question were leased to the UK rather than owned by.
So, setting aside whether this was an act of stupidity or not (in my opinion it was) do you feel duped by those media sources massively hyping up the damage when you are the arbiter of balanced evaluation?
Odd post. It's not my assessment Cyril, it's sharing a quoted figure. That's the best can be done.Quote:
Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays
But it's not about the cost is it, it's the principle. In targeting a country's military to force them to meet your political aims, it's not hard to see why they pass the threshold to be proscribed. Some of you acting like it's locking up Bambi, but it's not hard to see how a line was crossed is it?
Perhaps the point that you are not willing to grasp is how uncritically you parrotted a quoted figure when it embelishes a point you are trying to make compared with how much research you do to try and disprove someone else's point of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
In this case the Times produced an article quoting losses to defense suppliers that was then inflated by the really poor LBC article which you were happy to regurgitate and quote as if it was fact whilst still considering yourself the great balancer.
As an exercise in missing the point and doing so in a pompous manner, I give you an A+ here. Da Iawn.Quote:
Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays
Quite clearly it's not about the exact cost which runs into millions. I've seen several figures; £7m, £25m, £30m and £55m. None of which are acceptable. I suspect the Maniacs Murder Cult have cost us next to nothing and they are rightly proscribed too. Sharing an article that states £30m is not "parroting". If it is then I look forward to you making that claim consistently. Of course, you won't do this.
It's UK military hardware that a group are targeting to try and force political change. As I said, if you cant see how that can lead to a proscribed group then that surprises me. That said, I wouldn't be surprised in your case Cyril if you actually think you do know more than the MOD and UK govt lawyers!
They broke in and caused serious damage to UK military planes cos of Palestine. They showed no indication of a change in that policy. They got proscribed. Wholly agree with it or not, agree with the wider ideological position or not, it's not a complex thing to grasp and that's my essential point.
Arguably justified when the UK is complicit in supporting a genocide. But it's still not an act of terrorism.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Careful, PC Cyril will pick you up on the word genocide given its a contested term.Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo
Look, it's not hard to understand the passions involved in the wider topic and peoples outrage and disgust at the horrors of war. It's about how you protest.
Many apologies, I haven't quite adjusted to the post-truth world where facts no longer matter as easily as some. Don't want to rile you any more than you clearly are.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales