the rise of ukip

RACIST !!!!! :hehe:

They'll certainly shake up the senedd if they find shale gas underneath it.

Why do you never see a well educated UKIP voter? You see them for labour, Tory, green, libdem, plaid but the only people who speak out as Tory voters seem to be the less well educated of society just as you always did with BNP. Same for the majority of people who stand for election as part of UKIP.

To me I'm hoping most people who do vote for them vote as a protest vote rather than because they want to see them get in. I just can't feel comfortable with a party with policies like UKIPs, a right wing agenda and excessive nationalism; it doesn't often end up as a palatable mix.

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Originally Posted by tommy31

shows how much appetite there is for change.

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Indeed. But surely it has to be a major problem for Plaid that, despite once again the vote for Labour and the Tories going down, they haven't capitalised. There seems to be a notion that Plaid are the party that would benefit from a drop in the vote for the main parties, but again that simply hasn't happened. My opinion has long been that Wales needs a middle of the road party that is free of the stereotypes that bog Plaid down would be a success. After this election my view is strengthened.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Why do you never see a well educated UKIP voter? You see them for labour, Tory, green, libdem, plaid but the only people who speak out as Tory voters seem to be the less well educated of society just as you always did with BNP. Same for the majority of people who stand for election as part of UKIP.

To me I'm hoping most people who do vote for them vote as a protest vote rather than because they want to see them get in. I just can't feel comfortable with a party with policies like UKIPs, a right wing agenda and excessive nationalism; it doesn't often end up as a palatable mix.

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Generalisations are a pretty thick in my experience. Do you vote UKIP?

A lot of generalisations are based in fact I'm afraid. Their policies outside of leave the EU aren't well thought out enough and outside of a their policies why would anyone vote for them other than nationalistic tub thumping?

Do welsh people want a privatised NHS?
Do Welsh people want less tax on the richest members of society
Do Welsh people want a party who scrap the "stressful" SAT exams but replace them with grammar school entry exams which aren't apparenlry stressful?

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Indeed. But surely it has to be a major problem for Plaid that, despite once again the vote for Labour and the Tories going down, they haven't capitalised. There seems to be a notion that Plaid are the party that would benefit from a drop in the vote for the main parties, but again that simply hasn't happened. My opinion has long been that Wales needs a middle of the road party that is free of the stereotypes that bog Plaid down would be a success. After this election my view is strengthened.

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The vote has gone down, but they had enough of a gap that it didn't matter. Another collapse of this magnitude would lead to a big loss of seats. Labour are still polling at 35%, which in FPTP terms is enough to win (generally). They are also going to lose votes because of the tuition fee policy, or the fact that now they're in they have to implement one that wasn't in the manifesto.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

A lot of generalisations are based in fact I'm afraid. Their policies outside of leave the EU aren't well thought out enough and outside of a their policies why would anyone vote for them other than nationalistic tub thumping?

Do welsh people want a privatised NHS?
Do Welsh people want less tax on the richest members of society
Do Welsh people want a party who scrap the "stressful" SAT exams but replace them with grammar school entry exams which aren't apparenlry stressful?

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You are doing it again. Welsh people aren't one individual, each and every one is different. Some will be happy enough with a private NHS some won't, some happier with the rich people paying less tax other won't be. You can see the problem here with generalising people can't you?

As for the AT exams, anything that helps people learn to spell "apparently" gets my vote. :biggrin:

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Originally Posted by chris

not so long ago, they was seen as a minority party, a watered down version of the bnp in many peoples eyes :thumbup: , yet at the last election polled more than 4 million votes and have taken over from the wishy washy liberals as the third main party in this country :thumbup:, even though they they are not represented in parliament by the same number of mp,s a disgrace in many peoples eyes.:thumbup:

as elections come and go now, they are finishing second and third in many areas of the country , in front of the tories and labour in many areas, because voting labour or tory nowadays is virtually the same thing :hehe:

how long will it be before the country decide that enough is enough, and radical changes need to be made which labour or the tories will never provide ? :thumbup:

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So you would be happy to see the end of a local representative (MP), cos that is surely what P.R would represent?

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Originally Posted by TruBlue

You are doing it again. Welsh people aren't one individual, each and every one is different. Some will be happy enough with a private NHS some won't, some happier with the rich people paying less tax other won't be. You can see the problem here with generalising people can't you?

As for the AT exams, anything that helps people learn to spell "apparently" gets my vote. :biggrin:

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I think you're proving the generalisation right tbh.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I think you're proving the generalisation right tbh.

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I didn't vote UKIP, just liked pointing out your crass generalisations were ironic and a bit thick. :thumbup:

I think you'll find that it was quite on the money.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

I am speaking personally as I think what ukip will try and do - I have no prior knowledge (like everyone else on here)

Ukip have 600+ councillors, who debate and vote on all sorts of local council issues. Ukip have said before that on a local level they want their elected representatives to do just that - represent local people and opinion in what they feel is the best interest - rather than tory / labour just sticking to the party line.

So in a way - I quite like like - at last a political party doing things for local interest. That is fine at a local council level.

When it comes to the WAG it is higher level of debate (albeit still pointless in my opinion) so as such if they are to be taken seriously - they need experienced politician (or at least 1) to help administer their direction and communication - hence Mark Reckless - being an ex MP - I am guessing he has had a lot of experience - which is why he was selected.

Lets wait and see - rather than slag them off as being racists etc - to do that just sums up the lack of intelligence both of the electorate and of the people on this board.

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So, in a way, they're a new party that can change things unlike the more established parties? Could anyone give examples of this? And why have UKIP, a right wing party with some very dubious ideas been chosen as the proponents of change? Why not the Lib Dems or the Greens or Plaid?

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Originally Posted by Dénia Bluebird

So you would be happy to see the end of a local representative (MP), cos that is surely what P.R would represent?

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Local? Plenty of MPs don't come from the areas they serve or have much in common, they get voted in because of the party they represent.

I take your point, mind. PR would have some negative effect on raising local issues. Having said that we're in the position in the Senedd and Westminster where Wales and the UK are ruled against the wishes of the majority. Imagine if the Senedd and Westminster were occupied by roughly the same number of politicians per party that was voted for. We'd end up with a wide range of views being debated and largely middle of the road policies being carried out. We haven't got that at present. Certainly at Westminster we've got a government the majority didn't want making unpopular policies that end up being overturned due to their unfairness.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I think you'll find that it was quite on the money.

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As I asked, do you vote UKIP based on that logic? :tongue:

UKIP very cunningly offer all things to all men and offer simplistic answers to complex questions.

Listen to any UKIP politician and you'll get the stock answer to any question i.e. it's all the fault of the EU and those pesky immigrants.

Britain will be a green and pleasant land again, flowing with milk and honey. Everyone will have a well paid job, there will be plenty of school places and no waiting to see a GP or have an operation.

It's all bollocks of course. The reality is that their policy makers come primarily from the hard right and offer only small state austerity, further privatisation of public services, slashing social security, grammar schools (i.e. secondary moderns for the majority), two tier health service based on ones ability to pay, etc.

If that's what you want then fine, be honest about it and don't blatantly lie to the electorate.

Personally, I'd be embarrassed to have voted for the likes of Neil Hamilton and Mark Reckless. These are failed Tories and UKIP are just Tory sheep in UKIP wolfs clothing.

I just cannot get my head around a person who gets 8.2% of the vote in his ward, being elected as a Welsh AM.

This is just plainly wrong, and makes the whole Welsh Assembly a total joke.

It needs to be disbanded or revert to what British politics is renowned for ie democracy ie first past the post not this PR misrepresentation.

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Originally Posted by chris

not so long ago, they was seen as a minority party, a watered down version of the bnp in many peoples eyes :thumbup: , yet at the last election polled more than 4 million votes and have taken over from the wishy washy liberals as the third main party in this country :thumbup:, even though they they are not represented in parliament by the same number of mp,s a disgrace in many peoples eyes.:thumbup:

as elections come and go now, they are finishing second and third in many areas of the country , in front of the tories and labour in many areas, because voting labour or tory nowadays is virtually the same thing :hehe:

how long will it be before the country decide that enough is enough, and radical changes need to be made which labour or the tories will never provide ? :thumbup:

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UKIP is still and always will be a minority party: approx. 1 in 25 of the Welsh population voted for it in the election. They are thus over-represented in Wales.

The only radical change needed here is for you to stop spouting bollocks with a mixture of inappropriate smileys.

Chris's most successful thread NQAT

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Originally Posted by az city

UKIP is still and always will be a minority party: approx. 1 in 25 of the Welsh population voted for it in the election. They are thus over-represented in Wales.

The only radical change needed here is for you to stop spouting bollocks with a mixture of inappropriate smileys.

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People had the chance to vote for others, and didnt. Poor turnout is never an excuse. They are representing those who voted for them. Those who chose not to vote have nobody representing them.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

It's taken you this long for you to realise this ?:wales:

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Don't worry, failed politicians like Reckless and Hamilton will shake it up.

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Originally Posted by Cretin Hop

I just cannot get my head around a person who gets 8.2% of the vote in his ward, being elected as a Welsh AM.

This is just plainly wrong, and makes the whole Welsh Assembly a total joke.

It needs to be disbanded or revert to what British politics is renowned for ie democracy ie first past the post not this PR misrepresentation.

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FPTP works well for 2 party politics. Fortunately we've grown up and it's a thing of the past. If we took the 40 FPTP seats and allocated proportionally we'd have had: Labour 14, Cons 8.5 PC 8.5, UKIP 5, LD 3, Greens 1. much more representative parliament rather than a party getting half the seats with 33% of the vote

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

A lot of generalisations are based in fact I'm afraid. Their policies outside of leave the EU aren't well thought out enough and outside of a their policies why would anyone vote for them other than nationalistic tub thumping?

Do welsh people want a privatised NHS?
Do Welsh people want less tax on the richest members of society
Do Welsh people want a party who scrap the "stressful" SAT exams but replace them with grammar school entry exams which aren't apparenlry stressful?

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Apparenly? Is that the name of the UKIP councillor in your area :biggrin:

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Originally Posted by TH63

Whilst it saddens me that there is a growing number of thick racists in our country, thankfully there is still enough people who see UKIP for what they are.

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Spot on TH!:thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Shows how much appetite there is for Welsh nationalism. Once again, despite huge apathy for Labour and the Tories, Plaid make very few inroads.

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I thought people like that were scum? or is that just the English?

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Originally Posted by tommy31

People had the chance to vote for others, and didnt. Poor turnout is never an excuse. They are representing those who voted for them. Those who chose not to vote have nobody representing them.

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That's rubbish. If I have no individual/party to vote for that represents my views, who should I vote for? I maintain - UKIP is over-represented. Even Labour only represents 1 in 8 of the population.

On a side note, I bet you're a Brexshiter.

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Originally Posted by az city

That's rubbish. If I have no individual/party to vote for that represents my views, who should I vote for? I maintain - UKIP is over-represented. Even Labour only represents 1 in 8 of the population.

On a side note, I bet you're a Brexshiter.

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You're voting Donald aint you AZ? he seems to be popular across the pond :hehe:

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Originally Posted by az city

That's rubbish. If I have no individual/party to vote for that represents my views, who should I vote for? I maintain - UKIP is over-represented. Even Labour only represents 1 in 8 of the population.

On a side note, I bet you're a Brexshiter.

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vote for someone who best represents your views, and if there's nobody who's close (which I highly doubt given the range of parties standing in every seat) then spoil your ballot. but go in and use your vote.

On a side note, you are wrong. I thought my political views were pretty clear on here haha, clearly not.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

I am speaking personally as I think what ukip will try and do - I have no prior knowledge (like everyone else on here)

Ukip have 600+ councillors, who debate and vote on all sorts of local council issues. Ukip have said before that on a local level they want their elected representatives to do just that - represent local people and opinion in what they feel is the best interest - rather than tory / labour just sticking to the party line.

So in a way - I quite like like - at last a political party doing things for local interest. That is fine at a local council level.

When it comes to the WAG it is higher level of debate (albeit still pointless in my opinion) so as such if they are to be taken seriously - they need experienced politician (or at least 1) to help administer their direction and communication - hence Mark Reckless - being an ex MP - I am guessing he has had a lot of experience - which is why he was selected.

Lets wait and see - rather than slag them off as being racists etc - to do that just sums up the lack of intelligence both of the electorate and of the people on this board.

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Well said that man!

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Originally Posted by TH63

Whilst it saddens me that there is a growing number of thick racists in our country, thankfully there is still enough people who see UKIP for what they are.

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This.

I understand the desire to want to oust what can be a smug and lazy Labour party, I can understand the want for radical change. I can't understand people across Wales voting for UKIP when their main policies are about leaving Europe (Wales gets more out than pays in, especially in areas like the Valleys) and immigration where Wales has fewer immigrants than large swarms of England. If you want radical change then there is Plaid, Green, Lib Dems all of which offer more for Wales than UKIP and how they will drag the WAG right.

Even if you disagree with the above, Mark Reckless once got too drunk in the Parliament bar so couldn't take part in a vote. How can you go from being an awful MP to an WAG member? Shame on you if you voted for Mark Reckless and shame on you if you didn't vote and let it happen.

Watching Wales today interviewing our new AM Neil Hamilton and His wife. Jesus Christ!

Roving reporter seems to have bumped into the Jeremy Kyle fan club on the streets of Torfaen
"Yuh, I voted UKIP cos the other lot don't do nothing for us"
"We need to worry about the people we've got not let more in"

I despair

It is very sad to see folk voting for such a right wing party that is Thatcherist and not remotely interested in the working man. Labour may not be great but they have at least brought in policies like the minimum wage and through the Union's greater workers rights. Neil Hamilton and Mark Reckless know **** all about Wales and care even less.

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Originally Posted by TH63

Watching Wales today interviewing our new AM Neil Hamilton and His wife. Jesus Christ!

Roving reporter seems to have bumped into the Jeremy Kyle fan club on the streets of Torfaen
"Yuh, I voted UKIP cos the other lot don't do nothing for us"
"We need to worry about the people we've got not let more in"

I despair

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As abhorrent as it is to yourself and others,
what have the other lot done for, in your words, for the Jeremy Kyle fan club ?
perhaps the Jeremy Kyle fan club have voted for UKIP on other issues other than your perception, I haven't seen the interview.
I'm glad I live in a society where everyone is entitled to vote. Do you think that individuals should be denied a right to vote because they voted for UKIP ?, I am presuming that your post is based on the racism issue?, apologies if I have misinterpreted, I actually thought that racism was outlawed in the U.K and thus if UKIP were deemed to be a racist party then they would be outlawed, but just like about any law in this country, it's murky and clouded and can be read however you want to read it, surely the best way to deal with UKIP is for the so called main stream parties to get their own acts together, then these fringe based parties will dissapear, I also despair, but my despair is from the, having put up with the two party cartel for 55 years watching the rich get richer whilst the the Jeremy Kyle fan club has been swept into the gutter, the despair has driven me to PC!!!!!!.

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Originally Posted by Pearcey3

It is very sad to see folk voting for such a right wing party that is Thatcherist and not remotely interested in the working man. Labour may not be great but they have at least brought in policies like the minimum wage and through the Union's greater workers rights. Neil Hamilton and Mark Reckless know **** all about Wales and care even less.

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I don't know enough about Neil Hamilton but I completely agree regarding Reckless. It's like bringing in Paul Ince as Wales manager because he's experienced despite him being awful and having nothing to offer Wales.

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Originally Posted by Nelsonca61

As abhorrent as it is to yourself and others,
what have the other lot done for, in your words, for the Jeremy Kyle fan club ?
perhaps the Jeremy Kyle fan club have voted for UKIP on other issues other than your perception, I haven't seen the interview.
I'm glad I live in a society where everyone is entitled to vote. Do you think that individuals should be denied a right to vote because they voted for UKIP ?, I am presuming that your post is based on the racism issue?, apologies if I have misinterpreted, I actually thought that racism was outlawed in the U.K and thus if UKIP were deemed to be a racist party then they would be outlawed, but just like about any law in this country, it's murky and clouded and can be read however you want to read it, surely the best way to deal with UKIP is for the so called main stream parties to get their own acts together, then these fringe based parties will dissapear, I also despair, but my despair is from the, having put up with the two party cartel for 55 years watching the rich get richer whilst the the Jeremy Kyle fan club has been swept into the gutter, the despair has driven me to PC!!!!!!.

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Can UKIP voters name me the policies they voted for or was it just a case of getting rid of Labour? That latter reason is not good enough and I would be interested in fact-checking the policies UKIP voters went for.

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Originally Posted by TH63

Watching Wales today interviewing our new AM Neil Hamilton and His wife. Jesus Christ!

Roving reporter seems to have bumped into the Jeremy Kyle fan club on the streets of Torfaen
"Yuh, I voted UKIP cos the other lot don't do nothing for us"
"We need to worry about the people we've got not let more in"

I despair

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I fear that UKIP will quite feasibly appeal to many traditional Labour pockets in Wales, possibly areas where long-standing Labour maybe wasn't really chosen for it's policies, but possibly because they were the 'opposite and opposition' to the reviled Tories .

Now there is a Party that could appeal to those who are suspicious of anything and everything that exists further away than the bottom of their road, and areas inhabited by self-proclaimed 'salt-of-the-earth', but which actually feel rather small minded and xenophobic in actuality.

Very well done to Leanne Wood in the Rhondda mind. :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by surge

Can UKIP voters name me the policies they voted for or was it just a case of getting rid of Labour? That latter reason is not good enough and I would be interested in fact-checking the policies UKIP voters went for.

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Rather than be argumentative for the sake of it, I reckon you are 100% correct in that ukip voters just wanted Labour out, however regarding policy, I wonder how many Labour voters knew what they were voting on, you know the saying in Wales, put a red ribbon around a turd and it'll get a resounding victory. I wonder how many voters go to the poll voting on policy ?

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Originally Posted by Nelsonca61

Rather than be argumentative for the sake of it, I reckon you are 100% correct in that ukip voters just wanted Labour out, however regarding policy, I wonder how many Labour voters knew what they were voting on, you know the saying in Wales, put a red ribbon around a turd and it'll get a resounding victory. I wonder how many voters go to the poll voting on policy ?

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Voting for Labour because you always have isn't good enough, voting for "radical change" but not caring whether that has anything to offer Wales is not good enough.

Voting for a Mark Reckless who was too busy drinking to do his job is pathetic.

NinianClark is spot on. The Senedd badly needed UKIP to inject some spice into the debate but people won't be happy unless it's full to the brim of leftie luvvies like Charlotte Church.