Second referendum past 100k

Leaving the EU is a legitimate political stance but with Farage already backtracking on pledges made about funding the NHS, Hannan sidestepping away from Leave's views of free movement and the deluge of misinformation from both sides of things then how can you say that it was a democratic process and we should just move on?

Regarding this petition: the desire for a clear majority is acceptable but how many votes have seen 75% turnout? By signing this am I restricting my chance to make positive changes further down the line? It seem like a reaction to the negative and cheap campaigning and shock result.

Referendum not Neverendum

Funnily enough my neighbour and I were discussing this very notion earlier this week i.e. should a simple single figure majority win the referendum, such as 52% vs 48%. Such a close result guarantees half the population would be disgruntled with all the subsequent nastiness that is becoming apparent e.g. young vs old, Leave voters being “thickos” , Remain voters being intellectually superior etc. This new petition suggests a minimum of 60% needed to win – I would have suggested 66% on a minimum 75% turnout, anything less than that is unacceptable IMO for an issue as important as this one.

Cameron and the Remain camp definitely missed a trick here. He was probably so convinced that Remain would win comfortably (at least at the time when he proposed having a referendum) that it never entered his head.

P.S. I voted to leave so cannot be accused of sour grapes!

England have already started a petition to have their game replayed if they lose against Iceland.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Funnily enough my neighbour and I were discussing this very notion earlier this week i.e. should a simple single figure majority win the referendum, such as 52% vs 48%. Such a close result guarantees half the population would be disgruntled with all the subsequent nastiness that is becoming apparent e.g. young vs old, Leave voters being “thickos” , Remain voters being intellectually superior etc. This new petition suggests a minimum of 60% needed to win – I would have suggested 66% on a minimum 75% turnout, anything less than that is unacceptable IMO for an issue as important as this one.

Cameron and the Remain camp definitely missed a trick here. He was probably so convinced that Remain would win comfortably (at least at the time when he proposed having a referendum) that it never entered his head.

P.S. I voted to leave so cannot be accused of sour grapes!

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we would never get a 60% though, it was so close, we can have one every year for the next 10 years, that should please the Sour grape'ers

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Originally Posted by blue matt

we would never get a 60% though, it was so close, we can have one every year for the next 10 years, that should please the Sour grape'ers

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It seems maybe a lot of "Leave" voters are having second thoughts especially those who simply wanted to give Cameron & Co a bloody nose. Don't forget over 25% of the people registered to vote didn't vote - that's at least 12 million people. I wonder would they be split 50:50 too if they were persuaded to vote in a second referendum - maybe not?

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

It seems maybe a lot of "Leave" voters are having second thoughts especially those who simply wanted to give Cameron & Co a bloody nose. Don't forget over 25% of the people registered to vote didn't vote - that's at least 12 million people. I wonder would they be split 50:50 too if they were persuaded to vote in a second referendum - maybe not?

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if the split was 52 - 48, you have to assume it would be similar for the non-voters, or are we saying that more " remain'ers " couldnt be bothered to vote ? ? ?, maybe they were not 100 % sure either, thus could go the other way

we will never know though

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Originally Posted by blue matt

if the split was 52 - 48, you have to assume it would be similar for the non-voters, or are we saying that more " remain'ers " couldnt be bothered to vote ? ? ?, maybe they were not 100 % sure either, thus could go the other way

we will never know though

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I suspect the "remainers" thought it was a done deal (albeit a close run thing) and didn't bother to vote. I was a "leaver" but had a last minute dither over whether to vote or not, thinking that my vote wouldn't count for the same reason! As it happened my vote didn't make any difference because our area was 63% leave anyway! So in answer to your question I think many more of the non-voters would vote Remain rather than Leave if there were to be a re-run.

The possibility of a single Ireland has also moved closer, as has the possibility of closer ties between Ireland and Scotland.
The worst outcome was for Wales which by voting out now places it firmly inline with England.
Can you really believe that Boris will see Wales as a priority?
We will become the the runt in the pack once Scotland and Ireland have left the Uk and totally reliant on 'England'.
Londoners already want to go ahead alone as they voted remain, as did Cardiff.

The really sad thing about this is is that there are many less fortunate people in Wales and England who believe this will make their own lives better.
Why and How?
Many of them feel that work should come to them, on their doorstep. It ain't going to happen!
Those that feel they do not currently get enough need to explain how they think they will get more in the future.
It certainly won't happen if the trading balance of imports over exports worsens as it is likely todo.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

I suspect the "remainers" thought it was a done deal (albeit a close run thing) and didn't bother to vote. I was a "leaver" but had a last minute dither over whether to vote or not, thinking that my vote wouldn't count for the same reason! As it happened my vote didn't make any difference because our area was 63% leave anyway! So in answer to your question I think many more of the non-voters would vote Remain rather than Leave if there were to be a re-run.

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you might be right

on the flip side, maybe they were " leave'ers " who didnt vote as they thought like you did and their vote wouldnt make much of a difference as the remain were going to win

as i said, we might never know

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

I suspect the "remainers" thought it was a done deal (albeit a close run thing) and didn't bother to vote. I was a "leaver" but had a last minute dither over whether to vote or not, thinking that my vote wouldn't count for the same reason! As it happened my vote didn't make any difference because our area was 63% leave anyway! So in answer to your question I think many more of the non-voters would vote Remain rather than Leave if there were to be a re-run.

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What is the significance of that?

Your vote didn't make much difference because the UK vote was 51.8% in favour of leave and about 1 million more than remain. The split in your area is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by BLUEAWAY

The possibility of a single Ireland has also moved closer

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this is another strange thing about the vote, who would have known, all it would take to bring peace and harmony to Ireland was the threat of leaving the EU ( i know we have had peace, well almost, but its never really been harmonious )

It's scary that even now some people don't even realise that every vote counted. Gofer Blue where the hell have you been?

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

They might even get 16 million signatures.....

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I reckon more than 18M. Now that would be interesting.

This is an interesting comment from the Guardian's comment section.
Worth a read.

Teebs 14h ago
Guardian Pick

153
154
If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

Interesting article Charlie. Time will tell but Johnson has been very subdued.

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Originally Posted by Pearcey3

Interesting article Charlie. Time will tell but Johnson has been very subdued.

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Seems a lot of sense in there, but sadly sense seems in short supply.

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Originally Posted by Pearcey3

Interesting article Charlie. Time will tell but Johnson has been very subdued.

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I have had a feeling all day that actually leaving is a long way from actually happening. Hopefully someone will stand up soon and just say "NO!"

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Originally Posted by Charlie

Seems a lot of sense in there, but sadly sense seems in short supply.

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Agreed. I genuinely don't think Johnson has the first idea about what to do but he has made a lot of promises about extra funds to the NHS and ensuring regions like Wales receive funds to make up for the rebate shortfall. If the economists have this only half right he is going to face huge problems finding the money.
If you base a campaign on lies and more lies you face the consequences. He has a history of dishonesty and cheating in both his professional and private life. It will not end well for him. Not well at all.

If Boris is smart he will call a general election and purposely lose it.

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Originally Posted by Pearcey3

If you base a campaign on lies and more lies you face the consequences. He has a history of dishonesty and cheating in both his professional and private life. It will not end well for him. Not well at all.

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Indeed: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-gove-eu-liars

Petition to hold second EU referendum reaches 2m signatures

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ommons-website

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

If Boris is smart he will call a general election and purposely lose it.

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:hehe: Do you think he would need to?

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

Petition to hold second EU referendum reaches 2m signatures

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ommons-website

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It's three million now. I think Cameron was clever in not implementing article 50 although perhaps should have resigned with immediate effect. That really would have spooked Johnson and Co. In the meantime Cameron' s allies are now going after Johnson.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

If Boris is smart he will call a general election and purposely lose it.

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Surely smarter to not become leader, wait til the tories lose a GE and then go for leader?

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

Petition to hold second EU referendum reaches 2m signatures

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ommons-website

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They can get 17m, and it won't be enough...

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

If Boris is smart he will call a general election and purposely lose it.

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Given the "quality" of the opposition, that may be easier said than done :hehe:.

I think that the limitations of straightforward referendums where 50.000001% of the vote wins it for you have been exposed in the past couple of days, but that's the system we had and everyone knew it beforehand. So, for me at least, petitions for second referendums just come over as sour grapes - we've got a result after a turnout that was much bigger than in recent general elections and now we have to live with it's consequences.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

It seems maybe a lot of "Leave" voters are having second thoughts especially those who simply wanted to give Cameron & Co a bloody nose. Don't forget over 25% of the people registered to vote didn't vote - that's at least 12 million people. I wonder would they be split 50:50 too if they were persuaded to vote in a second referendum - maybe not?

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A referendum or plebiscite used to require that the side wanting to change the status quo had to attract over 50.1% of the "Available" vote. A non-vote was deemed to be a vote to maintain the status quo. If that were applied to this referendum it would require a 'Leave' of about 24,500,000 plus.
Add to that the fact that Farage and Co stated during the campaign that if the 'Remain' side won by a percentage of 52/48 or there abouts, then the decision would be so close that a rerun would be demanded. It seems that because the won by that margin this no longer applies.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Given the "quality" of the opposition, that may be easier said than done :hehe:.

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:hehe:

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

A referendum or plebiscite used to require that the side wanting to change the status quo had to attract over 50.1% of the "Available" vote. A non-vote was deemed to be a vote to maintain the status quo. If that were applied to this referendum it would require a 'Leave' of about 24,500,000 plus.
Add to that the fact that Farage and Co stated during the campaign that if the 'Remain' side won by a percentage of 52/48 or there abouts, then the decision would be so close that a rerun would be demanded. It seems that because the won by that margin this no longer applies.

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thing is though Nigel Farage is a plank and doesn't know what he's talking about there wouldn't be a 2nd Referendum if Remain won it's not how democracy works . I voted Leave by doing my own research and not listening to Nigel , and I'm still happy with my vote and think alot of my fellow "thickos" are

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

A referendum or plebiscite used to require that the side wanting to change the status quo had to attract over 50.1% of the "Available" vote. A non-vote was deemed to be a vote to maintain the status quo. If that were applied to this referendum it would require a 'Leave' of about 24,500,000 plus.
Add to that the fact that Farage and Co stated during the campaign that if the 'Remain' side won by a percentage of 52/48 or there abouts, then the decision would be so close that a rerun would be demanded. It seems that because the won by that margin this no longer applies.

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My understanding of what Farage said was that with a 52-48 defeat it wouldn't be over. Not that they would demand a second referendum immediately but that the campaign would continue.

However it is exactly the kind of feed the ducks thing that he would say.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

The problem with all this is that the Status Quo was not an option.

So who is it that sets the policy that says the EU must or will take in new countries ?

If the EU would stop its expansion of yet more 'crappy' members, would stop the continued march towards a more federal Europe - then the EU would not have a any problems - from any member countries. But I guess they are determined to carry on regardless of what anyone thinks.

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This is a valid point. The EU has gone too far in expanding the countries becoming new members.

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Originally Posted by darran1927

thing is though Nigel Farage is a plank and doesn't know what he's talking about there wouldn't be a 2nd Referendum if Remain won it's not how democracy works . I voted Leave by doing my own research and not listening to Nigel , and I'm still happy with my vote and think alot of my fellow "thickos" are

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I wasn't stating he was correct or that I agree with him, I was just commenting on what he said. You don't know, I may be one of your fellow 'thickos'. :hehe:

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

I wasn't stating he was correct or that I agree with him, I was just commenting on what he said. You don't know, I may be one of your fellow 'thickos'. :hehe:

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:hehe:

It seems that the petition was started by a leave campaigner thinking that remain would win..

https://m.facebook.com/Oliver.Healey...41575492720794

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Originally Posted by Charlie

It seems that the petition was started by a leave campaigner thinking that remain would win..

https://m.facebook.com/Oliver.Healey...41575492720794

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Which follows Farage's message that 52-48 would leave unfinished business.

there's going to be signatures removed , they are investigating fraudalent signatures . There's 37,000 signatures on there from Vatigan City which has a population of 1,000

Petitions Committee ‏@HoCpetitions 2h2 hours ago

We are investigating allegations of fraudulent use of the petitions site. Signatures found to be fraudulent will be removed.
414 retweets 266 likes

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Originally Posted by darran1927

there's going to be signatures removed , they are investigating fraudalent signatures . There's 37,000 signatures on there from Vatigan City which has a population of 1,000

Petitions Committee ‏@HoCpetitions 2h2 hours ago

We are investigating allegations of fraudulent use of the petitions site. Signatures found to be fraudulent will be removed.
414 retweets 266 likes

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Probably a few M.Mouse's on there.
If so i'll bet blue matt will have a knock on his door.

I blame Boaty McBoatface He started all this