Time to tell them to bugger off and not give them anything

The EU are shit-scared that we do well.
It will collapse in a few years under its own weight.

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Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

despite how reasonable the UK is being and how unreasonable the EU bureaucrats are being.

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Where have you read that bollocks?

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

I think you may well be right on that one, 5 countries coming in, all with unemployment levels circa 25%+. That means cheap labour for Germany, and other citixens will have their wages kept low because of the ready supply of labour - does anyone want that apart from Employers ?

Yanis Faourakis The ex Greek finance minister has similar ideas. They loaded Greece with debt - and when Greece said they couldnt repay - rather than the German banks suffer the Germans effectively put the Greek economy on the never never - in order to keep te German banks (and the European Bank afloat)

Basket case.com

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In a similar way, we turn a partial blind eye to illegal immigration for the same reason - cheap labour. This and previous governments could have sorted out immigration but have chosen not to, then blamed the EU.

Wales received more per head than most parts of the UK, maybe if the money had been spent wisely and distributed fairly across Wales, then Wales en-block mighted to have voted to remain, I see a few retort to those that voted to leave as idiots and stupid, this type of representation (similar to killary referring to many as deplorables) did no favours, the remain campaign failed to get across the benefits of remaining, largely because the benefits were retained by a select minority, the result in Wales was repeated throughout the poorer areas of the UK, whilst many of you just blame the people referring to them as idiots, the blame of the result lies firmly at the door of those so called leaders campaigning to stay, they didn't do their job effectively enough. There will i'm sure, be a bloody mess for years to come but if the country can get through the 15/20 year period ahead, then perhaps the following future may be O.K, it's total guesswork from all sides and there is WWIII to come to shake it all down, it's cyclic and the world population is too great, for the planet to be able to support it, in it's current guise. Agenda 21 folks!!!.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Where have you read that bollocks?

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The UK has offered a substantial divorce settlement when it doesn't need to pay a penny. I'd say that was being reasonable. Keep batting for the EU though.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

I think you may well be right on that one, 5 countries coming in, all with unemployment levels circa 25%+. That means cheap labour for Germany, and other citixens will have their wages kept low because of the ready supply of labour - does anyone want that apart from Employers ?

Yanis Faourakis The ex Greek finance minister has similar ideas. They loaded Greece with debt - and when Greece said they couldnt repay - rather than the German banks suffer the Germans effectively put the Greek economy on the never never - in order to keep te German banks (and the European Bank afloat)

Basket case.com

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Yep. We're told now that it's reactionary to oppose membership even though back in the 70s and 80s the left wanted out. It hasn't changed, it's still on the side of capital. Ask the people of Greece or Catalonia if the EU has sided with the common man.

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Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

The UK has offered a substantial divorce settlement when it doesn't need to pay a penny. I'd say that was being reasonable. Keep batting for the EU though.

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I read in the right wing media that the UK are the only parties being decent. I read in alternative media sources that the EU are the only ones being decent.

I suspect somewhere in the middle is where the truth lies. Neither are being particularly decent. That also seems most logical given the circumstances.

Because of this, I stand by my statement that your suggestion that the UK are the only ones being reasonable is bollocks.

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Originally Posted by Nelsonca61

There will i'm sure, be a bloody mess for years to come but if the country can get through the 15/20 year period ahead, then perhaps the following future may be O.K,

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Great. Let the younger generation sort out the mess and pay for it. It's this aspect of Brexit that makes me most angry, that people are happy with 20 years of misery (or more accurately are happy for others to burden 20 years of misery).

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

I read in the right wing media that the UK are the only parties being decent. I read in alternative media sources that the EU are the only ones being decent.

I suspect somewhere in the middle is where the truth lies. Neither are being particularly decent. That also seems most logical given the circumstances.

Because of this, I stand by my statement that your suggestion that the UK are the only ones being reasonable is bollocks.

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You can stand by what you like. If one party offers money they don't owe then I can't see how that is unreasonable. But you are entitled to your opinion of course, however flawed it might be.

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Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

But you are entitled to your opinion of course, however flawed it might be.

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Exactly the same goes for your logic. Utterly flawed. And bollocks.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Exactly the same goes for your logic. Utterly flawed. And bollocks.

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Not logic. Fact. And a fact that you haven't even tried to contradict.

This is why you don't really want decisions like this made on the back of a referendum. The people who were prominent during the leave campaign disappeared straight after and no one was responsible/prepared for the implementation of 'brexit'.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Great. Let the younger generation sort out the mess and pay for it. It's this aspect of Brexit that makes me most angry, that people are happy with 20 years of misery (or more accurately are happy for others to burden 20 years of misery).

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Like many, i have children and grandchildren who will have to live with the consequence of the result but as previously said, will blame the remain camp for being clueless in presenting the case for remain, it should have been an easy case to win, we do not know if it will be misery or not, there isn't a case to refer to, I do think life will be tough for a while but it's just a guess.

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Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

Not logic. Fact. And a fact that you haven't even tried to contradict.

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You reckon the UK are the only ones being reasonable. That's your comment. It's bollocks, in exactly the same way that I read elsewhere that the EU are the only ones being reasonable. That's bollocks, too.

As for the UK not needing to pay a penny, of course that's a fact of sorts. It comes with a no deal scenario that will crucify the UK of course.

Out of interest, do you think we should have a second referendum on the terms of any deal or are you afraid of not clinching another leave vote?

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Originally Posted by Nelsonca61

Like many, i have children and grandchildren who will have to live with the consequence of the result but as previously said, will blame the remain camp for being clueless in presenting the case for remain, it should have been an easy case to win, we do not know if it will be misery or not, there isn't a case to refer to, I do think life will be tough for a while but it's just a guess.

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That's why I believe a second referendum on the deal has to be put to the public, one based entirely on facts. Brexit has proved beyond any doubt that there's no consensus on what people want from leaving.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

This is why you don't really want decisions like this made on the back of a referendum. The people who were prominent during the leave campaign disappeared straight after and no one was responsible/prepared for the implementation of 'brexit'.

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True, sadly.
And a few that I have spoken with who voted out (getting harder to find ;) ) didnt really expect tit to lead to an actual Brexit>

It does seem hugely likely that it was a shock result - all round.
Like everything seems to be these days.

Which is rather odd, considering how damn 'clever' our systems / social indicators are supposed to be these days.

Anyway, 3pm - here we go , C'mon City

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

I could swear if you read to the end of my post it says something about not being sure..and wacky conspiracies.

Have a night off ffs.

You literally log on, shit all over the board, log off. Give us a break is it.

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I could swear if you read my post you'd see it's agreeing with you about wacky conspiracies.

But hey ho, take it as a personal attack if you will. Not a single **** is given.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

I read in the right wing media that the UK are the only parties being decent. I read in alternative media sources that the EU are the only ones being decent.

I suspect somewhere in the middle is where the truth lies. Neither are being particularly decent. That also seems most logical given the circumstances.

Because of this, I stand by my statement that your suggestion that the UK are the only ones being reasonable is bollocks.

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In cases like this it's common sense that rules tbh.

What would Britain gain from a decent Brexit deal? Best of both worlds, non EU trade and good deal with EU.

What would EU gain from a decent Brexit deal? Continued trade... BUT any decent Brexit deal would be a message to EU nations that, gasp, they can work effectively to the same level or better outside the EU.

So which side has it as a core interest to have Brexit fail? Clue; the entity is called EU.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

In cases like this it's common sense that rules tbh.

What would Britain gain from a decent Brexit deal? Best of both worlds, non EU trade and good deal with EU.

What would EU gain from a decent Brexit deal? Continued trade... BUT any decent Brexit deal would be a message to EU nations that, gasp, they can work effectively to the same level or better outside the EU.

So which side has it as a core interest to have Brexit fail? Clue; the entity is called EU.

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And this is your version of common sense? It's full of assumptions and is driven by the Brexiteers' chip on the shoulder - boo hoo they don't like us and they're being unreasonable.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

What would EU gain from a decent Brexit deal? Continued trade... BUT any decent Brexit deal would be a message to EU nations that, gasp, they can work effectively to the same level or better outside the EU.

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No it wouldn't mean that at all. It would mean a country with an economy the size of Britain has enough economic sway to sort out a trade deal with the EU. The day after Brexit we might have a decent deal with the EU and we might have managed to copy and paste some kind of transitional arrangement with a few other countries but this idea that we will quickly be able to trade freely with the rest of the world (in a way unlike before) is mental. This is going to take years and years to see if Brexit is a success, failure or just pointless.

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Originally Posted by Bluebirdman Of Alcathays

And this is your version of common sense? It's full of assumptions and is driven by the Brexiteers' chip on the shoulder - boo hoo they don't like us and they're being unreasonable.

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Of course they are going to be unreasonable. The EU agenda is the EU. Nothing else.

Knowing the tight deadlines, applying conditions before even talking about trade is absolutely ridiculous. Talks could easily be conducted in parallel, the most sensible course of action.

EU are losing the 2nd highest contributor. It's an assumption they'd want to make as much money as possible irrespective of the amount being fair, reasonable or even accurate?

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

No it wouldn't mean that at all. It would mean a country with an economy the size of Britain has enough economic sway to sort out a trade deal with the EU. The day after Brexit we might have a decent deal with the EU and we might have managed to copy and paste some kind of transitional arrangement with a few other countries but this idea that we will quickly be able to trade freely with the rest of the world (in a way unlike before) is mental. This is going to take years and years to see if Brexit is a success, failure or just pointless.

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Who is saying it would be amazing day one? Of course there will be inevitable issues - it's a long term thing not short term.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

Of course they are going to be unreasonable. The EU agenda is the EU. Nothing else.

Knowing the tight deadlines, applying conditions before even talking about trade is absolutely ridiculous. Talks could easily be conducted in parallel, the most sensible course of action.

EU are losing the 2nd highest contributor. It's an assumption they'd want to make as much money as possible irrespective of the amount being fair, reasonable or even accurate?

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It's a deadline we set. And yes.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

Who is saying it would be amazing day one? Of course there will be inevitable issues - it's a long term thing not short term.

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You said this...

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any decent Brexit deal would be a message to EU nations that, gasp, they can work effectively to the same level or better outside the EU.

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It just isn't true. A decent deal doesn't tell them that at all. An analysis in 20 years might, but who knows what state the UK/EU will be in by then.

This idea that the EU as a collective is just being petty and will sacrifice billions of $ of trade just to teach us a lesson is fanciful. This is how a negotiation works, they want their things, we want ours. We meet somewhere in the middle, unfortunately we are starting in the worse position.

I am really tired of the oh so predictable 'johnny foreigner is trying to get one over on good old blighty' bullshit imo.

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Originally Posted by Bluebirdman Of Alcathays

It's a deadline we set. And yes.

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Article 50 gives a 2 year deadline, which we're abiding by. It can be extended should the European Council agree - so that's a pretty big assumption on your part that all other member states would agree to such an extension.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

Article 50 gives a 2 year deadline, which we're abiding by. It can be extended should the European Council agree - so that's a pretty big assumption on your part that all other member states would agree to such an extension.

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Which we triggered.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

You said this...



It just isn't true. A decent deal doesn't tell them that at all. An analysis in 20 years might, but who knows what state the UK/EU will be in by then.

This idea that the EU as a collective is just being petty and will sacrifice billions of $ of trade just to teach us a lesson is fanciful. This is how a negotiation works, they want their things, we want ours. We meet somewhere in the middle, unfortunately we are starting in the worse position.

I am really tired of the oh so predictable 'johnny foreigner is trying to get one over on good old blighty' bullshit imo.

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Billions of trade won't be sacrificed. Tariffs would be applied.

There is no real negotiation. There has been a rising tide of anti-EU sentiment across Europe, not just in Britain. EU are doing what they decide is best for EU; not necessarily for member states.

Should deals be established quickly with non-EU states by Britain, there's a clear narrative that not being in EU isn't the end of the world by any means.

End of the day, it's not as simplistic as us good, "johnny foreigner" bad.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

Billions of trade won't be sacrificed. Tariffs would be applied.

There is no real negotiation. There has been a rising tide of anti-EU sentiment across Europe, not just in Britain. EU are doing what they decide is best for EU; not necessarily for member states.

Should deals be established quickly with non-EU states by Britain, there's a clear narrative that not being in EU isn't the end of the world by any means.

End of the day, it's not as simplistic as us good, "johnny foreigner" bad.

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:facepalm:

Who voted for her maj, who voted for the 26 c of e bishops sitting in the house of lords, The UK was ****ed before joining the EU and is ****ed again with only the prospect of it's departure.

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Originally Posted by bobh

The EU are shit-scared that we do well.
It will collapse in a few years under its own weight.

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No it wont, walk away, pay nothing, you need a trade deal to avoid becoming a sovereign insolvency. the EU is doing a blinding job sucking investment away from the UK while uncertainty continues to linger.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

In cases like this it's common sense that rules tbh.

What would Britain gain from a decent Brexit deal? Best of both worlds, non EU trade and good deal with EU.

What would EU gain from a decent Brexit deal? Continued trade... BUT any decent Brexit deal would be a message to EU nations that, gasp, they can work effectively to the same level or better outside the EU.

So which side has it as a core interest to have Brexit fail? Clue; the entity is called EU.

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But you don't get it that if Brexit fails, the UK will suffer big time as well.

The core interest is to get a deal that suits both UK and EU or Brexit is scrapped. A no deal is not in Britain's best interest, no matter how much you swallow from the right wing media.

The fallout from the referendum made me so angry. I was on the fence on this issue beforehand, but seeing how irritating the remain side became after was one of the main reasons I stopped using social media.

"If you voted to leave, just unfriend me now! I don't want to speak to you ever again!"
"I'm going to stay off FB for a while. I found out that a close chum of mine voted to leave and I don't know how to handle it"
"Anyone know how to get a Canadian visa? I'm seriously considering emigrating!"

These were just a fraction of the pathetic comments I saw from hyper-sensitive people that probably knew bugger all about the organisation they wanted to preserve and lasted for weeks. I knew only 2 people on my list of friends that openly voted to leave, and our "liberal" mutual friends not even from the UK viciously and spitefully attacked them for it before the referendum results were announced. And before you say it, no, I don't believe for a moment that those that wanted to leave the EU would react in the same way if the result went against them.

You can blame the media all you want, but generally the media I saw was opposed to Brexit (and has been since the referendum). You can blame xenophobia all you want, but that's clutching at straws. I don't believe that 52% of the UK are "racists and xenophobes" as many factions of the media would like you to believe.

That all being said, I'd agree that the people overseeing this come across as clueless. What really shocked me was discovering that Farage and George Galloway are good friends and both campaigned to leave the EU.

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Originally Posted by Tokyo Blue

The fallout from the referendum made me so angry. I was on the fence on this issue beforehand, but seeing how irritating the remain side became after was one of the main reasons I stopped using social media.

"If you voted to leave, just unfriend me now! I don't want to speak to you ever again!"
"I'm going to stay off FB for a while. I found out that a close chum of mine voted to leave and I don't know how to handle it"
"Anyone know how to get a Canadian visa? I'm seriously considering emigrating!"

These were just a fraction of the pathetic comments I saw from hyper-sensitive people that probably knew bugger all about the organisation they wanted to preserve and lasted for weeks. I knew only 2 people on my list of friends that openly voted to leave, and our "liberal" mutual friends not even from the UK viciously and spitefully attacked them for it before the referendum results were announced. And before you say it, no, I don't believe for a moment that those that wanted to leave the EU would react in the same way if the result went against them.

You can blame the media all you want, but generally the media I saw was opposed to Brexit (and has been since the referendum). You can blame xenophobia all you want, but that's clutching at straws. I don't believe that 52% of the UK are "racists and xenophobes" as many factions of the media would like you to believe.

That all being said, I'd agree that the people overseeing this come across as clueless. What really shocked me was discovering that Farage and George Galloway are good friends and both campaigned to leave the EU.

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I think this is more an analysis of twitter/social media (or perhaps the kind of dickheads you choose to associate with) than remainers or leavers. I work in an office of about 50 people, the debates went on after the vote and everyone remained friendly. I haven't really seen anything amounting to the behaviour you are suggesting in 'real life'.

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Originally Posted by El Gwapo

Disagree. For me it confirms we were right to leave such a vindictive, small minded and undemocratic organisation.

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I'm beginning to think the same.

If we can't survive as a standalone nation than were buggered anyway , in or out of Europe.

This could make or break this Goverment and the opposition, and considering the low opinion May has with the electorate I would just say to Europe sign this fair minded deal and takd our offer on a fair divorce payment , one that excludes the overblown values of the pension fund of its commissioners, which is in the millions, and something Labour is not very vocal on ).

I'd stand back, and listen to what other parties say and do ,then request a unity vote on the deal for the betterment of the UK , not that of the bloated European parliament and its needs .

If the vote is deafted, I would go into the next election with a few messages like :

We could not deliver the Brexit vote, as others failed to support.

The electorate decesion to leave has failed because of lack of parliamentary unity and Mps have falied their views.

We wanted a fair divorce payment ,not one that takes advantage of us .

We asked for a two way free trade deal , within Europe, not linked to movement of Labour .

We'd hace a shared military and security partnership .

Our own movement of labour rules would apply .

We would manage our own courts of justice ,something we have done well enough over the centuries.

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Originally Posted by Tokyo Blue

The fallout from the referendum made me so angry. I was on the fence on this issue beforehand, but seeing how irritating the remain side became after was one of the main reasons I stopped using social media.

"If you voted to leave, just unfriend me now! I don't want to speak to you ever again!"
"I'm going to stay off FB for a while. I found out that a close chum of mine voted to leave and I don't know how to handle it"
"Anyone know how to get a Canadian visa? I'm seriously considering emigrating!"

These were just a fraction of the pathetic comments I saw from hyper-sensitive people that probably knew bugger all about the organisation they wanted to preserve and lasted for weeks. I knew only 2 people on my list of friends that openly voted to leave, and our "liberal" mutual friends not even from the UK viciously and spitefully attacked them for it before the referendum results were announced. And before you say it, no, I don't believe for a moment that those that wanted to leave the EU would react in the same way if the result went against them.

You can blame the media all you want, but generally the media I saw was opposed to Brexit (and has been since the referendum). You can blame xenophobia all you want, but that's clutching at straws. I don't believe that 52% of the UK are "racists and xenophobes" as many factions of the media would like you to believe.

That all being said, I'd agree that the people overseeing this come across as clueless. What really shocked me was discovering that Farage and George Galloway are good friends and both campaigned to leave the EU.

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Just to show there are two sides to every argument - there are sad loons on both sides of the Brexit debate.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42045175

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

But you don't get it that if Brexit fails, the UK will suffer big time as well.

The core interest is to get a deal that suits both UK and EU or Brexit is scrapped. A no deal is not in Britain's best interest, no matter how much you swallow from the right wing media.

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Of course I get that - which is why any post Brexit actions have to focus on increasing non EU trade over EU trade.

You seem to believe there's interest in EU for a deal that suits both. You seriously believe EU want that? They want to scupper Brexit, try to force a lousy deal. EU want to send a message to any other nation thinking of leaving.

I'm well aware many, like Corbyn, reject "no deal". That's a great negotiating tactic that, "we'll accept any deal or will cancel Brexit".

EU is very much on a downward curve; German economics dominating it and Merkel can't even form a government at the moment. When Britain leaves, others will have to step forward due to the loss of the net contributions. Can't see Germany being happy at having to burden that load even more.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

Are there any other countries in the world that have handed over judicial decisions to a body in another country ? or any country that has effectively joined forces with another country and then moved bits of parliament to that other country etc etc

As I cant think of any - I'm discounting the US - as it's that sort of federal states type system since it's begining.

Does Japan let China dictate it's health and safety laws ?
Maybe Australia allows New Zealand to rule on some Australian law cases.
What about Mexico telling the US to give it's seat on the UN security council in favour of a combined US/Mexico representative ?

To me - that is what is wrong with the whole system, lets trade with each other, lets even have our own industrial currency that we do imports / exports in, maybe even agree on a set of common safety rules for all our collective electrical products. But let us not tell each other that we are free to come and go into each others countries etc - lets not encourage companies in one country to avoid paying tax in another country because it offers a cheaper tax rate.

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The problem with the EU concept as anything other than a trading block is that the European nations are far too disperse. Trying to fit all into a "one size fits all" approach doesn't work.

As you mentioned tax I just find the EU utterly hypocritical. "Clamp down on tax" - like Juncker did in Luxemburg for example?

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

The thing that bugs me about this whole "divorce bill" is it's completely unhinged.

"You want a divorce? Give me loads of money".

Ok, in that case let's look at dividing the assets up then. Oh wait, EU seem to be very quiet about that.

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They are dividing the assets. This is net of any asset division