Reply With QuoteThis is why you don't really want decisions like this made on the back of a referendum. The people who were prominent during the leave campaign disappeared straight after and no one was responsible/prepared for the implementation of 'brexit'.
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Not logic. Fact. And a fact that you haven't even tried to contradict.Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
This is why you don't really want decisions like this made on the back of a referendum. The people who were prominent during the leave campaign disappeared straight after and no one was responsible/prepared for the implementation of 'brexit'.
Like many, i have children and grandchildren who will have to live with the consequence of the result but as previously said, will blame the remain camp for being clueless in presenting the case for remain, it should have been an easy case to win, we do not know if it will be misery or not, there isn't a case to refer to, I do think life will be tough for a while but it's just a guess.
You reckon the UK are the only ones being reasonable. That's your comment. It's bollocks, in exactly the same way that I read elsewhere that the EU are the only ones being reasonable. That's bollocks, too.
As for the UK not needing to pay a penny, of course that's a fact of sorts. It comes with a no deal scenario that will crucify the UK of course.
Out of interest, do you think we should have a second referendum on the terms of any deal or are you afraid of not clinching another leave vote?
That's why I believe a second referendum on the deal has to be put to the public, one based entirely on facts. Brexit has proved beyond any doubt that there's no consensus on what people want from leaving.
True, sadly.
And a few that I have spoken with who voted out (getting harder to find ;) ) didnt really expect tit to lead to an actual Brexit>
It does seem hugely likely that it was a shock result - all round.
Like everything seems to be these days.
Which is rather odd, considering how damn 'clever' our systems / social indicators are supposed to be these days.
Anyway, 3pm - here we go , C'mon City
I could swear if you read my post you'd see it's agreeing with you about wacky conspiracies.
But hey ho, take it as a personal attack if you will. Not a single **** is given.
In cases like this it's common sense that rules tbh.
What would Britain gain from a decent Brexit deal? Best of both worlds, non EU trade and good deal with EU.
What would EU gain from a decent Brexit deal? Continued trade... BUT any decent Brexit deal would be a message to EU nations that, gasp, they can work effectively to the same level or better outside the EU.
So which side has it as a core interest to have Brexit fail? Clue; the entity is called EU.
And this is your version of common sense? It's full of assumptions and is driven by the Brexiteers' chip on the shoulder - boo hoo they don't like us and they're being unreasonable.
No it wouldn't mean that at all. It would mean a country with an economy the size of Britain has enough economic sway to sort out a trade deal with the EU. The day after Brexit we might have a decent deal with the EU and we might have managed to copy and paste some kind of transitional arrangement with a few other countries but this idea that we will quickly be able to trade freely with the rest of the world (in a way unlike before) is mental. This is going to take years and years to see if Brexit is a success, failure or just pointless.
Of course they are going to be unreasonable. The EU agenda is the EU. Nothing else.
Knowing the tight deadlines, applying conditions before even talking about trade is absolutely ridiculous. Talks could easily be conducted in parallel, the most sensible course of action.
EU are losing the 2nd highest contributor. It's an assumption they'd want to make as much money as possible irrespective of the amount being fair, reasonable or even accurate?
Who is saying it would be amazing day one? Of course there will be inevitable issues - it's a long term thing not short term.
It's a deadline we set. And yes.
You said this...
It just isn't true. A decent deal doesn't tell them that at all. An analysis in 20 years might, but who knows what state the UK/EU will be in by then.any decent Brexit deal would be a message to EU nations that, gasp, they can work effectively to the same level or better outside the EU.
This idea that the EU as a collective is just being petty and will sacrifice billions of $ of trade just to teach us a lesson is fanciful. This is how a negotiation works, they want their things, we want ours. We meet somewhere in the middle, unfortunately we are starting in the worse position.
I am really tired of the oh so predictable 'johnny foreigner is trying to get one over on good old blighty' bullshit imo.
Article 50 gives a 2 year deadline, which we're abiding by. It can be extended should the European Council agree - so that's a pretty big assumption on your part that all other member states would agree to such an extension.
Which we triggered.
Billions of trade won't be sacrificed. Tariffs would be applied.
There is no real negotiation. There has been a rising tide of anti-EU sentiment across Europe, not just in Britain. EU are doing what they decide is best for EU; not necessarily for member states.
Should deals be established quickly with non-EU states by Britain, there's a clear narrative that not being in EU isn't the end of the world by any means.
End of the day, it's not as simplistic as us good, "johnny foreigner" bad.
Who voted for her maj, who voted for the 26 c of e bishops sitting in the house of lords, The UK was ****ed before joining the EU and is ****ed again with only the prospect of it's departure.
No it wont, walk away, pay nothing, you need a trade deal to avoid becoming a sovereign insolvency. the EU is doing a blinding job sucking investment away from the UK while uncertainty continues to linger.
But you don't get it that if Brexit fails, the UK will suffer big time as well.
The core interest is to get a deal that suits both UK and EU or Brexit is scrapped. A no deal is not in Britain's best interest, no matter how much you swallow from the right wing media.
The fallout from the referendum made me so angry. I was on the fence on this issue beforehand, but seeing how irritating the remain side became after was one of the main reasons I stopped using social media.
"If you voted to leave, just unfriend me now! I don't want to speak to you ever again!"
"I'm going to stay off FB for a while. I found out that a close chum of mine voted to leave and I don't know how to handle it"
"Anyone know how to get a Canadian visa? I'm seriously considering emigrating!"
These were just a fraction of the pathetic comments I saw from hyper-sensitive people that probably knew bugger all about the organisation they wanted to preserve and lasted for weeks. I knew only 2 people on my list of friends that openly voted to leave, and our "liberal" mutual friends not even from the UK viciously and spitefully attacked them for it before the referendum results were announced. And before you say it, no, I don't believe for a moment that those that wanted to leave the EU would react in the same way if the result went against them.
You can blame the media all you want, but generally the media I saw was opposed to Brexit (and has been since the referendum). You can blame xenophobia all you want, but that's clutching at straws. I don't believe that 52% of the UK are "racists and xenophobes" as many factions of the media would like you to believe.
That all being said, I'd agree that the people overseeing this come across as clueless. What really shocked me was discovering that Farage and George Galloway are good friends and both campaigned to leave the EU.
I think this is more an analysis of twitter/social media (or perhaps the kind of dickheads you choose to associate with) than remainers or leavers. I work in an office of about 50 people, the debates went on after the vote and everyone remained friendly. I haven't really seen anything amounting to the behaviour you are suggesting in 'real life'.
I'm beginning to think the same.
If we can't survive as a standalone nation than were buggered anyway , in or out of Europe.
This could make or break this Goverment and the opposition, and considering the low opinion May has with the electorate I would just say to Europe sign this fair minded deal and takd our offer on a fair divorce payment , one that excludes the overblown values of the pension fund of its commissioners, which is in the millions, and something Labour is not very vocal on ).
I'd stand back, and listen to what other parties say and do ,then request a unity vote on the deal for the betterment of the UK , not that of the bloated European parliament and its needs .
If the vote is deafted, I would go into the next election with a few messages like :
We could not deliver the Brexit vote, as others failed to support.
The electorate decesion to leave has failed because of lack of parliamentary unity and Mps have falied their views.
We wanted a fair divorce payment ,not one that takes advantage of us .
We asked for a two way free trade deal , within Europe, not linked to movement of Labour .
We'd hace a shared military and security partnership .
Our own movement of labour rules would apply .
We would manage our own courts of justice ,something we have done well enough over the centuries.
Just to show there are two sides to every argument - there are sad loons on both sides of the Brexit debate.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42045175
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