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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dml1954
This thread is reading like an article from ‘Socialist Worker’. Anyone who is not a communist is being pounced upon by the ‘comrades’. Luckily we will never have to find out what sort of mess Jeremy Corbyn and his cronies would have made of it all.
I think there's a good chance labour could have messed it up.
I don't see how that is an argument against the fact that the current government have ****ed up their reaction to the virus, ****ed up the NHS by purposely under funding it for a decade or that the only sensible decisions that have been made are socialist in nature.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
I don't think this is a time for party politics, we can do all that when we have got through this and we are doing the mopping up.
But I'll guarantee you that regardless of what they may be saying or might say publicly, there are several high profile politicians that are thanking their God that they didn't win an election.
Crobyn May Blair Brown Hammond must all secretly be so relieved not to be in Boris's postiton.
He, and his advisors and government are having to deal with a situation every day that is unlike anything ever seen in this country and with no historical refgerences to look back on for guidance.
By its nature it is being played "On the hoof" and decisions have to be made that no PM, no government, any time in the history of this country have ever had to contemplate let alone action.
It is much easier to stand on the side lines and barrack than to actually be ther having to make the decisions.
I defy any of the so called pasrty leaders to say they want to be PM today. At least they wouldn't say it if there was the slightest chance it might happen.
As for Scotland, where would it be now if it had got the independance some of its more vocal politicians demand every day. Their health service is in a worse state than in Wales and that is not good.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
By its nature it is being played "On the hoof" and decisions have to be made that no PM, no government, any time in the history of this country have ever had to contemplate let alone action.
What about the countries that were all infected before us? Why didn't we just look at and learn from them?
Just because it is a time of crisis does not mean people are above criticism, the government have handled it and still are handling it slowly and incompetently.
I don't really know what the point of your post is tbh, maybe you can simplify it for me?
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dml1954
This thread is reading like an article from ‘Socialist Worker’. Anyone who is not a communist is being pounced upon by the ‘comrades’. Luckily we will never have to find out what sort of mess Jeremy Corbyn and his cronies would have made of it all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
xsnaggle
I don't think this is a time for party politics, we can do all that when we have got through this and we are doing the mopping up.
But I'll guarantee you that regardless of what they may be saying or might say publicly, there are several high profile politicians that are thanking their God that they didn't win an election.
Crobyn May Blair Brown Hammond must all secretly be so relieved not to be in Boris's postiton.
He, and his advisors and government are having to deal with a situation every day that is unlike anything ever seen in this country and with no historical refgerences to look back on for guidance.
By its nature it is being played "On the hoof" and decisions have to be made that no PM, no government, any time in the history of this country have ever had to contemplate let alone action.
It is much easier to stand on the side lines and barrack than to actually be ther having to make the decisions.
I defy any of the so called pasrty leaders to say they want to be PM today. At least they wouldn't say it if there was the slightest chance it might happen.
As for Scotland, where would it be now if it had got the independance some of its more vocal politicians demand every day. Their health service is in a worse state than in Wales and that is not good.
Oh look it’s the 2 dick heads of the apocalypse!
It should surprise nobody that the 2 biggest dunces on this board are Tory voters.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
What about the countries that were all infected before us? Why didn't we just look at and learn from them?
Just because it is a time of crisis does not mean people are above criticism, the government have handled it and still are handling it slowly and incompetently.
I don't really know what the point of your post is tbh, maybe you can simplify it for me?
no I won't bother, you're so clever you know everything already! Enjoy your superiority.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BLUETIT
Would they have put the right shoes on the right feet :hehe::hehe:
Oh wait the 3rd is here, the man who puts a laughing smiley at the end of every post despite being only slightly funnier than a covid infection.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
What did they react to that medical experts told them? The herd immunity thing that had to be dropped in a week becasue it would have killed 1000s?
Situation changes on a daily basis as more is known about the virus.
IC Ferguson's report today is illuminating...
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tell it like it is
Situation changes on a daily basis as more is known about the virus.
IC Ferguson's report today is illuminating...
It's funny how the solution is what everyone was saying a month ago though.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
It's funny how the solution is what everyone was saying a month ago though.
Ferguson originally predicted 250k deaths.
Ferguson stated government had got their timing on restrictions right.
Ferguson has revised figures do to potentially less than 20k, mostly those who would be expected to die anyway.
https://twitter.com/AlexBerenson/sta...33211011690499
EDIT: Ferguson amazingly partly attributes the lockdown to the change - incredible that the lockdown has had such an effect in 2 days when lockdowns usually take 2 weeks to affect things. His main point appears to be that far more people have it than was predicted - which shows the virus is far less dangerous than expected.
I guess you know better than him, CMO et al though.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dml1954
This thread is reading like an article from ‘Socialist Worker’. Anyone who is not a communist is being pounced upon by the ‘comrades’. Luckily we will never have to find out what sort of mess Jeremy Corbyn and his cronies would have made of it all.
Why cos we'll all be dead?
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hilts
Big mistake number 1 - electing the wrong Milliband brother.
It was the right Miliband, he just got nobbled by the media. The other one was a Hillary arse licker.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Funny! A man who wanted to invest heavily in Health (There's an idea) Public Transport, Workers rights, Contracts and pay (Alot of people are very concerned about this at the moment) Would have prefered to have talked rather that attacked and maimed (foreign policy) Cared for the vulnerable and increased services to those who needed it the most. Ring any bells lads and lasses? If that's 'Mad Leftie) then bring it on. The self Employed and those in jobs without contracts working for shithouses who don't care if their workforce ends up in extreme poverty are feeling the brunt of Tory policy that has allowed businesses to use their workforce like pit ponies. It's happening right now, Peoples misery due to this virus is being made worse by historic Tory policy.
People who voted for a Tory government are going to see in real time what they signed up to, that's the poorest and most vulnerable suffering even more. Well done. It's a bit like asking a stranger to kick you in the bollocks then complaining because it hurts.
Inspired post Tuerto, nail and head!
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Funny! A man who wanted to invest heavily in Health (There's an idea) Public Transport, Workers rights, Contracts and pay (Alot of people are very concerned about this at the moment) Would have prefered to have talked rather that attacked and maimed (foreign policy) Cared for the vulnerable and increased services to those who needed it the most. Ring any bells lads and lasses? If that's 'Mad Leftie) then bring it on. The self Employed and those in jobs without contracts working for shithouses who don't care if their workforce ends up in extreme poverty are feeling the brunt of Tory policy that has allowed businesses to use their workforce like pit ponies. It's happening right now, Peoples misery due to this virus is being made worse by historic Tory policy.
People who voted for a Tory government are going to see in real time what they signed up to, that's the poorest and most vulnerable suffering even more. Well done. It's a bit like asking a stranger to kick you in the bollocks then complaining because it hurts.
Many voted Tory because the remainers wouldn't accept the will of the people.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wales-Bales
It was the right Miliband, he just got nobbled by the media. The other one was a Hillary arse licker.
Dave Milliband ahead in all stages of voting until the Union votes coalesced at the final stage.
Unions wanted Ed, unions got Ed.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tell it like it is
Dave Milliband ahead in all stages of voting until the Union votes coalesced at the final stage.
Unions wanted Ed, unions got Ed.
Establishment didn't want Ed, establishment didn't get Ed.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wales-Bales
Many voted Tory because the remainers wouldn't accept the will of the people.
Agree, although it was a big risk to take for alot of people in my opinion. Corbyn was in a difficult position in that his social policies had attracted quite alot of middle class vote who although not left wing by nature are certainly humanitarian and were taken by his social policies, same with the young and student population. He would've alienated some of them by not showing huge enthusiasm towards the country being a member state of the EU, he's not a fan, neither am i, although we've done that already. Then there was the traditional labour vote in the ex industrial areas who (in my opinion) thought that voting to leave was a protest against a governing body who they felt had let them down and felt just as isolated under EU legislation as they did under previous UK governments. He was on a hiding to nothing really.
All Boris had to do was chuck out some semi Churchillian sound bites and not really deal with the main issues, piece of piss for him really.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
To be fair, although threads like this pop up every now and then, and they can be quite amusing, as usual, it’s just all guff and hot air.
Since I was born, there have only ever been Conservative and Labour Governments in the UK, with the exception of one coalition.
It’s been the same arguments, regurgitated, time after time..
I’ve yet to see a government that can keep a 60m + population all happy, and I never will.
It’s easier to nail blancmange to a ceiling.
A socialist country would be as fraught with problems as a capitalist country is.
Mankind will always have folk at the bottom and folk at the top.
There will always be poor folk and rich folk.
There will always be strong folk and weak folk.
The majority of us find our comfortable niche somewhere in the equation, live our lives as well as we can and then shuffle off our mortal coils into oblivion.
If we can navigate through what can sometimes be a beautiful world, and sometimes a complete cess pit, to a ripe old age, then we can count ourselves to be the lucky ones.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Duffy will be under immense pressure and stress at the moment. Put your cock away and join the revolution :thumbup:
Duffy's dead
Only on telly I hasten to add
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
I'm not so sure about that, let's see what things look like in two or three weeks.
There will of course be a full scale public enquiry into this afterwards.
Though it will.doubtless take years to report
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Elwood Blues
Duffy's dead
Only on telly I hasten to add
Now you tell me :hehe: How you doing? Hope you don't mind me saying, but isn't your wife in a vulnerable situation as posted by you on here before. If so, can i help you mate? A bit of shopping etc? I think that you've mentioned that you live in North Cardiff (as do i) so it wouldn't be a problem for me-hope you're not offended by the offer.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wales-Bales
Establishment didn't want Ed, establishment didn't get Ed.
Yeah, that must be it.
Can't be anything to do with incompetence whatsoever.
The irony is I've little doubt Labour would have won that election under David. Still, unions eh?
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Years of strangling the NHS of funding ......who of course are now Angels.....years of cuts to social care .....cuts to public services, cuts to social services , the police
Massive rise in food bank use
Disgraceful attacks on those reliant on the benefits system
All under the tories
Making this country even less well prepared for the hard times
Well , we are going to face a major recession following this crisis , we are also going to need thousands of immigrants to care for the sick and the old
Thank god we have a right wing government that is going to rip up its welfare reforms and look after those in need
Thank god we are in europe to attract migrants to the low paid jobs that need doing like working in care homes , cleaning the hospitals etc
Oh hold on a minute .......
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tell it like it is
Yeah, that must be it.
Can't be anything to do with incompetence whatsoever.
The irony is I've little doubt Labour would have won that election under David. Still, unions eh?
If I remember rightly most (if not all) unions consulted their affiliated members to decide which candidate to back. Maybe a few relied on a delegate conference.
Trades union members paying a Labour affiliation fee as part of their subs were and are part of the Labour movement and should be entitled to have a say. The electoral college formula has changed - as has the balance between MPs, individual members and affiliated members (and now registered supporters) but the principle is similar and sound.
The way you describe the process a group of 'union bosses' hid away in a smoke filled room and stitched up the leadership election. That didn't happen - and nothing like that has happened in UK Labour politics for a generation or more.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tell it like it is
Yeah, that must be it.
Can't be anything to do with incompetence whatsoever.
The irony is I've little doubt Labour would have won that election under David. Still, unions eh?
I thought ed was hopeless , david Miliband would have won us the election even if he was tainted by his association with the war monger
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
If I remember rightly most (if not all) unions consulted their affiliated members to decide which candidate to back. Maybe a few relied on a delegate conference.
Trades union members paying a Labour affiliation fee as part of their subs were and are part of the Labour movement and should be entitled to have a say. The electoral college formula has changed - as has the balance between MPs, individual members and affiliated members (and now registered supporters) but the principle is similar and sound.
The way you describe the process a group of 'union bosses' hid away in a smoke filled room and stitched up the leadership election. That didn't happen - and nothing like that has happened in UK Labour politics for a generation or more.
Well, I'm sure Labour would like to portray that but it seems highly interesting that David was well ahead - well ahead in votes from MPs and party members. Union votes however reflected the total opposite.
Given Red Len won his last election when virtually all union members refused to vote tends to indicate union votes had undue effect.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
I thought ed was hopeless , david Miliband would have won us the election even if he was tainted by his association with the war monger
David Milliband at least comes across as statemanlike. Ed couldn't even eat a bacon sandwich properly.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
100%, the government and the voting public will have forgotten all of this in 6 months.
Either forgotten or remembered very differently.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NYCBlue
It's up from 43 to 49%. Which is worrying.
On the handling of the Corona virus he's on 60%, while the fake news media are on 44% :hehe:
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BLUETIT
Would they have put the right shoes on the right feet :hehe::hehe:
Uncle Jeremy would have insisted on a referendum on self isolation and wiped half the country out
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Powis blue
Uncle Jeremy would have insisted on a referendum on self isolation and wiped half the country out
He'd have invited coronavirus to HoC for a tour and a nice cup of tea because after all, everything can be solved via dialogue - though of course, he'd only speak to the virus and not to people fighting the virus.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
There are countries with left and right wing Governments which are being hit very hard by the virus - it does not recognise different political philosophies. Yes, there are different nuances involved which you would think have an effect on things like healthcare, but, speaking as a Labour voter, how much difference would there really be now if we had that party in power? Spain has a Government, admittedly it only came to power in January, led by a socialist workers party, but if Johnson and co are, rightly in my view, being criticised for wasting a couple of months opportunity to plan better for what was coming, then the same can be applied in Spain - that's just poor decision making, not the wrong political conviction.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
So Johnson et al are rightly being criticised in your view on what evidence?
Do you have anything indicating they have gone against the evidence of the CMO, for example?
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tell it like it is
So Johnson et al are rightly being criticised in your view on what evidence?
Do you have anything indicating they have gone against the evidence of the CMO, for example?
Well if you're trying to argue that going with the herd mentality approach for a while and then doing a complete about face was all part of some masterplan, then good luck on that. Also, it's clearly counter productive to have people who may already have had and recovered from the virus sat at home because someone where they live may have it. The means to test more people and in greater numbers quicker and more efficiently was paramount surely, but,instead we took the decision only to test those with the worst symptoms - as I say, poor decision making as opposed to flawed political allegiance.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Funny! A man who wanted to invest heavily in Health (There's an idea) Public Transport, Workers rights, Contracts and pay (Alot of people are very concerned about this at the moment) Would have prefered to have talked rather that attacked and maimed (foreign policy) Cared for the vulnerable and increased services to those who needed it the most. Ring any bells lads and lasses? If that's 'Mad Leftie) then bring it on. The self Employed and those in jobs without contracts working for shithouses who don't care if their workforce ends up in extreme poverty are feeling the brunt of Tory policy that has allowed businesses to use their workforce like pit ponies. It's happening right now, Peoples misery due to this virus is being made worse by historic Tory policy.
People who voted for a Tory government are going to see in real time what they signed up to, that's the poorest and most vulnerable suffering even more. Well done. It's a bit like asking a stranger to kick you in the bollocks then complaining because it hurts.
Excellent post. :thumbup:
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NYCBlue
Because enough people are easily persuaded to vote against their own interests. There would never be a Tory government otherwise.
It's like that cartoon that was doing the rounds before the election where there was two foxes reading a newspaper with the headline "Tories to bring back fox hunting" and one fox says to the other. "I'll vote for him because I don't like the other fella" or words to that effect.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
There are countries with left and right wing Governments which are being hit very hard by the virus - it does not recognise different political philosophies. Yes, there are different nuances involved which you would think have an effect on things like healthcare, but, speaking as a Labour voter, how much difference would there really be now if we had that party in power? Spain has a Government, admittedly it only came to power in January, led by a socialist workers party, but if Johnson and co are, rightly in my view, being criticised for wasting a couple of months opportunity to plan better for what was coming, then the same can be applied in Spain - that's just poor decision making, not the wrong political conviction.
While recognising no amount of funding would have prepared us, wouldn't we have been better prepared for this without 10 years of looking to reduce NHS capacity either through austerity or, at least in the short-term, Brexit? Part of the pre-election headlines Nicky Morgan admitting that current running of NHS would see 18,500 nurses leave over 10 year period. That may just be extending what was happening beforehand, and complicated by NHS being run by different parties around UK but the graphs chosen seem to suggest much greater investment beforehand. Why not join the EU scheme to bulk buy ventilators though?
Boris Johnson with aid of Dominc Cummings is not your usual center-right government. It's not like Theresa May was differing rather it's someone who had a desire to shake up politics and, reportedly, lead to Dominc Cummings saying “herd immunity, protect the economy, and if that means some pensioners die, too bad.” That's a story from the The Times.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tell it like it is
Yeah, that must be it.
Can't be anything to do with incompetence whatsoever.
The irony is I've little doubt Labour would have won that election under David. Still, unions eh?
Why would labour have won that election under David?
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
surge
While recognising no amount of funding would have prepared us, wouldn't we have been better prepared for this without 10 years of looking to reduce NHS capacity either through austerity or, at least in the short-term, Brexit? Part of the pre-election headlines Nicky Morgan admitting that current running of NHS would see 18,500 nurses leave over 10 year period. That may just be extending what was happening beforehand, and complicated by NHS being run by different parties around UK but the graphs chosen seem to suggest much greater investment beforehand. Why not join the EU scheme to bulk buy ventilators though?
Boris Johnson with aid of Dominc Cummings is not your usual center-right government. It's not like Theresa May was differing rather it's someone who had a desire to shake up politics and, reportedly, lead to Dominc Cummings saying “herd immunity, protect the economy, and if that means some pensioners die, too bad.” That's a story from the The Times.
He's in the unenviable position of either having to protect the super rich or the vulnerable. Poor Boris.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
The UK officially downgraded the COVID-19 threat last Thursday - but very few people seem to know that.
That isn't surprising as the decision received very little publicity, and if it had it would have made the government restrictions imposed since then much harder to justify. We have something of a Twilight Zone situation in Britain now with coppers throughout the UK trying, albeit half-heartedly, to enforce social distancing rules, while their colleagues in the Met Police in the nation's capital city, whose job it is to disperse gatherings, singularly fail to do so, or even attempt to.
Here's scenes from the London underground this morning - https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/112586...erground-busy/
The .gov guidance issued last week is here https://www.gov.uk/guidance/high-con...us-of-covid-19 and also pasted beneath.
Status of COVID-19
As of 19 March 2020, COVID-19 is no longer considered to be a high consequence infectious diseases (HCID) in the UK.
The 4 nations public health HCID group made an interim recommendation in January 2020 to classify COVID-19 as an HCID. This was based on consideration of the UK HCID criteria about the virus and the disease with information available during the early stages of the outbreak. Now that more is known about COVID-19, the public health bodies in the UK have reviewed the most up to date information about COVID-19 against the UK HCID criteria. They have determined that several features have now changed; in particular, more information is available about mortality rates (low overall), and there is now greater clinical awareness and a specific and sensitive laboratory test, the availability of which continues to increase.
The Advisory Committee on Dangerous Pathogens (ACDP) is also of the opinion that COVID-19 should no longer be classified as an HCID.
The need to have a national, coordinated response remains, but this is being met by the government’s COVID-19 response.
Cases of COVID-19 are no longer managed by HCID treatment centres only. All healthcare workers managing possible and confirmed cases should follow the updated national infection and prevention (IPC) guidance for COVID-19, which supersedes all previous IPC guidance for COVID-19. This guidance includes instructions about different personal protective equipment (PPE) ensembles that are appropriate for different clinical scenarios.
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Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.
What exactly does downgraded mean in this sense though? I assume it's just based on the government's/WHO's definitions, it doesn't mean that it isn't dangerous.
Quote:
In the UK, a high consequence infectious disease (HCID) is defined according to the following criteria:
acute infectious disease
typically has a high case-fatality rate
may not have effective prophylaxis or treatment
often difficult to recognise and detect rapidly
ability to spread in the community and within healthcare settings
requires an enhanced individual, population and system response to ensure it is managed effectively, efficiently and safely
I assume to be high consequence the mortality rate would have to be over a certain percent. Even though covid isn't safe to have the mortality rate is still relatively low unless you are over 70.
Covid's danger seems to be more from how easily transmitted it is.