COVID - Something has to change

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Would you mind if I congratulate you both for two very humble, generous and reasoned responses. More of this is to be welcomed.

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Piss off Dork face!

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Piss off Dork face!

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Oh cheers Heis lol

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Piss off Dork face!

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That cool dude profile picture has gone to your head

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Oh cheers Heis lol

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:hehe:

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Originally Posted by Rjk

That cool dude profile picture has gone to your head

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:hehe: It still tickles me that he said it.

We've reached a perilous turning point.​

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Originally Posted by goats

Good news there, hope.....

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My boss is currently working from Spain and couldn’t believe the amount of people wearing masks.

Outdoors, if alone, on the beach. Everyone has one on all the time and you get challenged if you don’t.

I don’t believe it’s compulsory either just an attitude shift.

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Originally Posted by Harry Paget Flashman

My boss is currently working from Spain and couldn’t believe the amount of people wearing masks.

Outdoors, if alone, on the beach. Everyone has one on all the time and you get challenged if you don’t.

I don’t believe it’s compulsory either just an attitude shift.

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It is compulsory there since the numbers jumped up. I was there recently and everyone had them on though.

The point is, unless we're all prepared to totally isolate from each other, maybe in little plastic boxes (one each), for at least two weeks, then these lockdowns are a waste of time. They are achieving nothing, except postpone things for a while. As soon as people start coming back outside, off it goes again. The only way ahead (without a vaccine) is to protect the vulnerable as best we can, and the rest of us just get on with things.

You can't send kids to school, students to university, workers to offices and factories, open shops and cafes...and not expect the virus to spread. It's madness. Everything we do is spreading the virus. But for the vast majority of us, it doesn't matter. But when you look at the steps we're taking, you'd think we were dealing with the bubonic plague, that might wipe us all out.

This country is on the verge of collapse, and we will be paying for this for a generation or more. Jobs are disappearing, businesses closing down, futures being demolished. Is it really worth it? And don't say "The alternative is that we all die" because we won't!

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Originally Posted by tforturton

The point is, unless we're all prepared to totally isolate from each other, maybe in little plastic boxes (one each), for at least two weeks, then these lockdowns are a waste of time. They are achieving nothing, except postpone things for a while. As soon as people start coming back outside, off it goes again. The only way ahead (without a vaccine) is to protect the vulnerable as best we can, and the rest of us just get on with things.

You can't send kids to school, students to university, workers to offices and factories, open shops and cafes...and not expect the virus to spread. It's madness. Everything we do is spreading the virus. But for the vast majority of us, it doesn't matter. But when you look at the steps we're taking, you'd think we were dealing with the bubonic plague, that might wipe us all out.

This country is on the verge of collapse, and we will be paying for this for a generation or more. Jobs are disappearing, businesses closing down, futures being demolished. Is it really worth it? And don't say "The alternative is that we all die" because we won't!

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the plan certainly looks like stumble along till 1/2 term and have 2 weeks lockdown for 1/2 term, that'll buy some time, same again over christmas , not sure its sustainable to have 2 weeks lockdown every 6 weeks though, maybe it'll by us some more time

Its not going to work for the lower paid unless the government helps them out

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Data in Sweden is really worth watching. <a href="https://t.co/guob7cZ5k8">pic.twitter.com/guob7cZ5k8</a></p>— Latika M Bourke (@latikambourke) <a href="https://twitter.com/latikambourke/status/1308371896178749443?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 22, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

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Here's more data from Sweden that's worth looking at.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...n-the-nordics/

https://i.imgur.com/06dWRTn.png

Can't have that many Covid-19 cases if you don't test for it...

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Originally Posted by goats

Italy had a more severe lockdown, anyone know what’s going on there? Lots of co living between families too

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I’m in southern Italy now. Here for 11 nights on a long-planned ‘special’ holiday for my partner’s 60th. Italy was way down on the infections table so we decided not to cancel and come despite some nervousness about the flights and the risk of quarantine if the status changed dramatically whilst we were in the country.

From my experience of several parts of the UK in recent months the Italians are much more likely to wear masks, check temperatures at every shop or restaurant and socially distance. It isn’t perfect and foreign tourists are less likely to behave, but the general level of compliance and responsibility is much higher than the UK.

I have only seen Naples, Amalfi and parts of Puglia - the north was worse hit in March to May - but they seem to take Covid more seriously than us. They also had a proper lock down with none of the fudge and contradictory waffle offered up by Johnson.

We feel very safe. The only areas of concern are the flights - all full and with variable levels of effective mask wearing with mouth and/or nose covering a matter of personal choice!

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Originally Posted by jon1959

I’m in southern Italy now. Here for 11 nights on a long-planned ‘special’ holiday for my partner’s 60th. Italy was way down on the infections table so we decided not to cancel and come despite some nervousness about the flights and the risk of quarantine if the status changed dramatically whilst we were in the country.

From my experience of several parts of the UK in recent months the Italians are much more likely to wear masks, check temperatures at every shop or restaurant and socially distance. It isn’t perfect and foreign tourists are less likely to behave, but the general level of compliance and responsibility is much higher than the UK.

I have only seen Naples, Amalfi and parts of Puglia - the north was worse hit in March to May - but they seem to take Covid more seriously than us. They also had a proper lock down with none of the fudge and contradictory waffle offered up by Johnson.

We feel very safe. The only areas of concern are the flights - all full and with variable levels of effective mask wearing with mouth and/or nose covering a matter of personal choice!

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Sounds ok but are they having the same rise in cases as Spain, France and the UK? And if not, how come?

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Originally Posted by goats

Sounds ok but are they having the same rise in cases as Spain, France and the UK? And if not, how come?

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Not sure of the latest infection rates but like all countries there has been a rise, mainly among younger people and not matched by a major rise in hospitalisation. They have gone from green to amber in the traffic light ratings, but way behind Spain, France and the UK. There has also been a bit of a backlash against Covid control measures - headed by right wing populist parties in the regional elections that were declared yesterday. They made a few gains but not as many as they hoped and expected.

My sense from talking to a lot of ordinary Italians is that they have sacrificed too much to throw it away through selfishness or stupidity, and they still share the horror of northern hospitals overwhelmed by Covid in the spring - the shock of that is still raw!

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Not sure of the latest infection rates but like all countries there has been a rise, mainly among younger people and not matched by a major rise in hospitalisation. They have gone from green to amber in the traffic light ratings, but way behind Spain, France and the UK. There has also been a bit of a backlash against Covid control measures - headed by right wing populist parties in the regional elections that were declared yesterday. They made a few gains but not as many as they hoped and expected.

My sense from talking to a lot of ordinary Italians is that they have sacrificed too much to throw it away through selfishness or stupidity, and they still share the horror of northern hospitals overwhelmed by Covid in the spring - the shock of that is still raw!

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Cheers, enjoy the rest of your holiday :thumbup:

I’m lost as to which government people are referring to? As I understand things the government is doing a comparatively ok job compared to the government in england for example.

There is no such thing as the UK when is comes to COVID-19, is there? Seems a bit unfair for Drakeford to be tarnished by the bumbling buffoons strategy.

Re. Lockdown. There is no other option unless you want corpses piled up outside the Heath. I think it’s literally THAT serious.

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Originally Posted by Divine Wright

I’m lost as to which government people are referring to? As I understand things the government is doing a comparatively ok job compared to the government in england for example.

There is no such thing as the UK when is comes to COVID-19, is there? Seems a bit unfair for Drakeford to be tarnished by the bumbling buffoons strategy.

Re. Lockdown. There is no other option unless you want corpses piled up outside the Heath. I think it’s literally THAT serious.

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Agree and it's so sad the four regions are going their different ways. This is a time for unity like never before.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Agree and it's so sad the four regions are going their different ways. This is a time for unity like never before.

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Sad? People In Wales and Scotland should be thanking their lucky stars that BJ isn’t making decisions for them.

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Originally Posted by Divine Wright

Sad? People In Wales and Scotland should be thanking their lucky stars that BJ isn’t making decisions for them.

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Yes you're absolutely right but he should never have been anywhere near any position of power. If the whole of the country followed Drakeford and Sturgeon's policies we'd all be safer.

Looking from overseas all I see is incompetence from Boris, the man has no idea how to run a country or how to plan for anything. He constantly changes rules and often too late which causes confusion and disinterest from the public because people aren't able to adjust to any new rules before they're changed again. He says he assures people 'we' will do things, fans back in stadiums etc when it has no actual evidence that that is even possible.

From the start people worried about a 2nd wave in winter so the fact that the UK is getting a strong wave so early into the winter is extremely concerning. The UK have a huge advantage over many countries in that it is an island, Boris should have restricted entry earlier on the 1st wave and has made the same mistake on the 2nd. All this banging on about the UK economy he should have told people to give up the idea of an overseas holiday this year and to holiday in the UK helping the tourism industries, by letting people holiday overseas all he has done is import the virus in large quantities once again, kickstarting the UK wave. At the end of the day all he does is bang on about getting out of Europe but has allowed 1000's of people to jolly around Europe and return with no enforced quarantine, testing or contact tracing in place.

I have been living in Australia for the past 2 years and was due to return home in a couple of months, BJ's handling of this and the damage that has been done to the UK means I am now looking to extend my stay in Australia potentially forever as well as lots of brits that I know have made similar plans. Australia has handled this very well and I understand the position of Australia and NZ on the globe will have made a big effect on their ability to lower the risk of importing the virus but they acted fast and strong to limit the spread with strong borders (the whole point of Brexit), enforced quarantine by hotel and/or enforced by door knocking by police or army and limiting overseas travel to citizens who have an exception and not for people who simply fancy a boozy week in Bali.

The U.K would always have had to live with the virus due to it's close proximity to Europe but the damage to peoples lives and livelihoods could have been greatly reduced, hopefully I'll return one day but even if I do I'm not sure if there will be a UK as I know it know, independence calls are growing and will only continue to grow until Boris is gone or he learns to bring the countries and people together.

Italy coping relatively well so far this late summer/autumn;-

https://www.worldometers.info/corona...country/italy/

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Originally Posted by Wozza16

Looking from overseas all I see is incompetence from Boris, the man has no idea how to run a country or how to plan for anything. He constantly changes rules and often too late which causes confusion and disinterest from the public because people aren't able to adjust to any new rules before they're changed again. He says he assures people 'we' will do things, fans back in stadiums etc when it has no actual evidence that that is even possible.

From the start people worried about a 2nd wave in winter so the fact that the UK is getting a strong wave so early into the winter is extremely concerning. The UK have a huge advantage over many countries in that it is an island, Boris should have restricted entry earlier on the 1st wave and has made the same mistake on the 2nd. All this banging on about the UK economy he should have told people to give up the idea of an overseas holiday this year and to holiday in the UK helping the tourism industries, by letting people holiday overseas all he has done is import the virus in large quantities once again, kickstarting the UK wave. At the end of the day all he does is bang on about getting out of Europe but has allowed 1000's of people to jolly around Europe and return with no enforced quarantine, testing or contact tracing in place.

I have been living in Australia for the past 2 years and was due to return home in a couple of months, BJ's handling of this and the damage that has been done to the UK means I am now looking to extend my stay in Australia potentially forever as well as lots of brits that I know have made similar plans. Australia has handled this very well and I understand the position of Australia and NZ on the globe will have made a big effect on their ability to lower the risk of importing the virus but they acted fast and strong to limit the spread with strong borders (the whole point of Brexit), enforced quarantine by hotel and/or enforced by door knocking by police or army and limiting overseas travel to citizens who have an exception and not for people who simply fancy a boozy week in Bali.

The U.K would always have had to live with the virus due to it's close proximity to Europe but the damage to peoples lives and livelihoods could have been greatly reduced, hopefully I'll return one day but even if I do I'm not sure if there will be a UK as I know it know, independence calls are growing and will only continue to grow until Boris is gone or he learns to bring the countries and people together.

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Good post, I hope you're allowed to settle over there :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by tforturton

We can't carry on like this. We can't keep locking down individual towns or counties, in some vain attempt to stop this virus spreading. It's clearly not working, because as soon as one area comes out of lockdown, it starts up again - like everyone knew it would. We can't all go back to work, or out to eat, or to visit our favourite shopping centre, and not expect it to spread. We can't all go away on holiday (home or abroad), and not expect that someone will bring it back.

The problem here is that the government has painted itself into a corner, due to its previous actions. It's almost impossible now, for them to say "Okay, we might have got this wrong. Let's try something else". Because it might be time now to stop with all these lockdowns, and just let everyone get on with it. Protect the vulnerable (and properly, not like the previous care home fiasco), and let everyone else take their chances. It's beginning to look like Sweden had it right all along.

These viruses have been around before. Hong Kong flu, swine flu, chicken flu, etc etc. It's part of life, and we have to learn to live with them. So my advice to Boris would be that we need to change course. Before it really is too late.

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Something has to change?

How about the UK government?

The gaggle of bungling, lying shysters.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Italy coping relatively well so far this late summer/autumn;-

https://www.worldometers.info/corona...country/italy/

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Seems to have levelled out on cases and deaths after the upturn a few weeks back, no reason it shouldn’t do the same here hopefully if we adhere to SD.

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Originally Posted by goats

Seems to have levelled out on cases and deaths after the upturn a few weeks back, no reason it shouldn’t do the same here hopefully if we adhere to SD.

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Given what Jon says, that last bit may be a problem - speaking for myself, with almost half of the Welsh new cases yesterday being in RCT, I'm almost back into spring lockdown mode now.

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Originally Posted by Wozza16

Looking from overseas all I see is incompetence from Boris, the man has no idea how to run a country or how to plan for anything. He constantly changes rules and often too late which causes confusion and disinterest from the public because people aren't able to adjust to any new rules before they're changed again. He says he assures people 'we' will do things, fans back in stadiums etc when it has no actual evidence that that is even possible.

From the start people worried about a 2nd wave in winter so the fact that the UK is getting a strong wave so early into the winter is extremely concerning. The UK have a huge advantage over many countries in that it is an island, Boris should have restricted entry earlier on the 1st wave and has made the same mistake on the 2nd. All this banging on about the UK economy he should have told people to give up the idea of an overseas holiday this year and to holiday in the UK helping the tourism industries, by letting people holiday overseas all he has done is import the virus in large quantities once again, kickstarting the UK wave. At the end of the day all he does is bang on about getting out of Europe but has allowed 1000's of people to jolly around Europe and return with no enforced quarantine, testing or contact tracing in place.

I have been living in Australia for the past 2 years and was due to return home in a couple of months, BJ's handling of this and the damage that has been done to the UK means I am now looking to extend my stay in Australia potentially forever as well as lots of brits that I know have made similar plans. Australia has handled this very well and I understand the position of Australia and NZ on the globe will have made a big effect on their ability to lower the risk of importing the virus but they acted fast and strong to limit the spread with strong borders (the whole point of Brexit), enforced quarantine by hotel and/or enforced by door knocking by police or army and limiting overseas travel to citizens who have an exception and not for people who simply fancy a boozy week in Bali.

The U.K would always have had to live with the virus due to it's close proximity to Europe but the damage to peoples lives and livelihoods could have been greatly reduced, hopefully I'll return one day but even if I do I'm not sure if there will be a UK as I know it know, independence calls are growing and will only continue to grow until Boris is gone or he learns to bring the countries and people together.

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You are right about having the advantage of being on an island, almost criminal we haven’t used that. We shouldn’t have let anyone leave or in and we wouldn’t have a problem now maybe? All holiday here in the UK. Can we just do that now anyway? Unless it’s essential work or students arriving? Sounds like the people in Melbourne have had a rough six months mind. Australia is fortunate in some ways it’s so big that cities are hundreds of miles apart. Don’t think life in Perth has changed at all has it?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Given what Jon says, that last bit may be a problem - speaking for myself, with almost half of the Welsh new cases yesterday being in RCT, I'm almost back into spring lockdown mode now.

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All the students have just arrived in Treforest too, if most weren't already here by now

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Originally Posted by goats

You are right about having the advantage of being on an island, almost criminal we haven’t used that. We shouldn’t have let anyone leave or in and we wouldn’t have a problem now maybe? All holiday here in the UK. Can we just do that now anyway? Unless it’s essential work or students arriving? Sounds like the people in Melbourne have had a rough six months mind. Australia is fortunate in some ways it’s so big that cities are hundreds of miles apart. Don’t think life in Perth has changed at all has it?

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It is criminal, the man has left 1000's of people die for no reason apart from being inept and he will run up such big debts to be paid after this that'll it damage peoples lives for the next decade and all before his dream no deal brexit scenario kicks in from January. Like I said people should have been told to travel inside of the UK over the summer when the virus levels were low. A 2nd wave in the winter was inevitable but to have such a strong start and with winter not even arrived yet, it's going to be a long 6 months and I wouldn't be surprised to see around 100,000 deaths by March/April.

That is a massive advantage in Australia as the borders of the states are blocked, so at least the unaffected parts of Australia can carry on as normal as salvage what it can of the economy. I'm actually living in Melbourne, it has been a horrific six months. We are currently in week 12 of lockdown and not including the additional 4-5 weeks in March that we had. Perth, Adelaide, Darwin and Tasmania are all pretty much Covid free and some have been for 2-3 months now, NSW and QLD are in very low numbers each day, we in Melbourne have managed to get it from around 750 a day 5 weeks ago to an impressive 12 yesterday.

The government is damned if they do and damned if they don't. People say we went into lockdown too late but now are saying the new rules are too tight suggesting we should let things get worse before taking precautionary action. People say the government's rules are too complicated but others say they are not clear enough by addressing every situation which would arguably add to the confusion. The government was criticised for allowing passengers from abroad to enter the country but when the quarantine arrangements were introduced that was wrong adding to the destruction of the tourist and hospitality industries. Now the government is accused of ruining the economy which has come about significantly through the cost of the furlough arrangements but others are saying the arrangements should be extended beyond the end of October when current arrangements end.

On the downside, as we are an island, the virus should have been easier to control with the death and infection rates lower and most are agreed the test and trace arrangements are a shambles. The covid test and trace ap is released today 4 months late.

What seems clear to me is that things will not return to normal any time soon; the virus is so infectious and not everyone is obeying the rules meaning things are unlikely to get better in the foreseeable future with infection rates rising especially as Universities resume. If infection rates reduce to below current levels things will be eased and the cycle of infection is likely to occur again. The government seem to think the current restrictions will last for 6 months. How do they know? Is this another example of kicking the can down the road? Until there is a vaccination things can't get better.

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Originally Posted by Bluebina

We have a lot of thicko's mate, I don't know whats happened over the last twenty years but the number of really thick people seems to have multiplied quicker than covid 19?

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These people are not “Thick”. They are Ignorant, greedy and thoughtless. A big difference.

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

These people are not “Thick”. They are Ignorant, greedy and thoughtless. A big difference.

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And whats worse is they're the UK government!

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Originally Posted by goats

All the students have just arrived in Treforest too, if most weren't already here by now

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They're now on about not allowing students to leave universities over Christmas. There's of course a myriad of problems within that, but it does beg the question, why have them go back in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Wozza16

It is criminal, the man has left 1000's of people die for no reason apart from being inept and he will run up such big debts to be paid after this that'll it damage peoples lives for the next decade and all before his dream no deal brexit scenario kicks in from January. Like I said people should have been told to travel inside of the UK over the summer when the virus levels were low. A 2nd wave in the winter was inevitable but to have such a strong start and with winter not even arrived yet, it's going to be a long 6 months and I wouldn't be surprised to see around 100,000 deaths by March/April.

That is a massive advantage in Australia as the borders of the states are blocked, so at least the unaffected parts of Australia can carry on as normal as salvage what it can of the economy. I'm actually living in Melbourne, it has been a horrific six months. We are currently in week 12 of lockdown and not including the additional 4-5 weeks in March that we had. Perth, Adelaide, Darwin and Tasmania are all pretty much Covid free and some have been for 2-3 months now, NSW and QLD are in very low numbers each day, we in Melbourne have managed to get it from around 750 a day 5 weeks ago to an impressive 12 yesterday.

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Strange that Sydney didn’t get so affected as Melbourne? I really liked living in Melbourne, it’s a great city with amazing coastline down the great ocean rd (hitching down there as a carefree kid back in 1990 was one of the best times of my life). At least you have summer to come now so hopefully things will be much better as it seems you’ve had it tough there for the last 6 months.

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Originally Posted by City123

They're now on about not allowing students to leave universities over Christmas. There's of course a myriad of problems within that, but it does beg the question, why have them go back in the first place?

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How can you police that? Quite a few of my student tenants are either from abroad, lived in Wales anyway or just stayed here through it all anyway.....

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Originally Posted by Vindec

The government is damned if they do and damned if they don't. People say we went into lockdown too late but now are saying the new rules are too tight suggesting we should let things get worse before taking precautionary action. People say the government's rules are too complicated but others say they are not clear enough by addressing every situation which would arguably add to the confusion. The government was criticised for allowing passengers from abroad to enter the country but when the quarantine arrangements were introduced that was wrong adding to the destruction of the tourist and hospitality industries. Now the government is accused of ruining the economy which has come about significantly through the cost of the furlough arrangements but others are saying the arrangements should be extended beyond the end of October when current arrangements end.

On the downside, as we are an island, the virus should have been easier to control with the death and infection rates lower and most are agreed the test and trace arrangements are a shambles. The covid test and trace ap is released today 4 months late.

What seems clear to me is that things will not return to normal any time soon; the virus is so infectious and not everyone is obeying the rules meaning things are unlikely to get better in the foreseeable future with infection rates rising especially as Universities resume. If infection rates reduce to below current levels things will be eased and the cycle of infection is likely to occur again. The government seem to think the current restrictions will last for 6 months. How do they know? Is this another example of kicking the can down the road? Until there is a vaccination things can't get better.

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Think they are just saying 6 months as that’s winter over at least, even though the last lockdown started at the end of last winter.....
Maybe there will be a vaccine? Didn’t Vallance say the other day there was a small chance it could be ready for those who need it most by Christmas? Now, that would be the sort of news that if true most people would just toe the line up until then, knowing things will be normal again post Christmas. I’d be happy to sit in for 3 months if it was nailed on this would end once and for all.

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Originally Posted by goats

Think they are just saying 6 months as that’s winter over at least, even though the last lockdown started at the end of last winter.....
Maybe there will be a vaccine? Didn’t Vallance say the other day there was a small chance it could be ready for those who need it most by Christmas? Now, that would be the sort of news that if true most people would just toe the line up until then, knowing things will be normal again post Christmas. I’d be happy to sit in for 3 months if it was nailed on this would end once and for all.

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The arrival of the vaccine will be the beginning of the end, but it will still take a painfully long time before we can say it's ended once and for all.

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Originally Posted by goats

Strange that Sydney didn’t get so affected as Melbourne? I really liked living in Melbourne, it’s a great city with amazing coastline down the great ocean rd (hitching down there as a carefree kid back in 1990 was one of the best times of my life). At least you have summer to come now so hopefully things will be much better as it seems you’ve had it tough there for the last 6 months.

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It's the same everywhere with some UK towns and cities getting it worse than others. You have summer to come; our summer is over. Things haven't really been that tough for us as the restrictions were largely lifted during our summer months and many of those unable to work were getting 80% of their salaries paid by the government. Of course there were also people, like the self employed, unable to work that haven't had much help but even all political parties seem to accept that public finances cannot be used to help everyone.

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Originally Posted by goats

How can you police that? Quite a few of my student tenants are either from abroad, lived in Wales anyway or just stayed here through it all anyway.....

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Exactly, its completely unenforceable and shows the levels of disconnect between this government and the people.

Firstly of course students are adults, not children, unis don't "send them home" like its a school. Secondly many live in private accommodation with nothing to do with the uni and finally most uni accommodation is only available in term time (closed during holidays) which would give them nowhere to live. Also, good luck stopping the army of mothers who'll cross the country to bring their kids back (whether the kids want to go back or not!)

They clearly haven't thought it through at all

They could havearmed patrols with machine gun nests on all the roads leading out of towns with University accommodation.
Then they could stop the cars, drag the students out and lock them up, and if the driving mother argues they can use the machine guns.

I think I need to start taking this thread more seriously.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

They could havearmed patrols with machine gun nests on all the roads leading out of towns with University accommodation.
Then they could stop the cars, drag the students out and lock them up, and if the driving mother argues they can use the machine guns.

I think I need to start taking this thread more seriously.

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You're right! Didn't Johnson talk about using the services of the Army the other day?