I'm sure I remember a very established poster on here, and one that features heavily in this thread, telling us that Arsenal wouldn't fill their ground when they moved to the Emirates. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Packerman
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I'm sure I remember a very established poster on here, and one that features heavily in this thread, telling us that Arsenal wouldn't fill their ground when they moved to the Emirates. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Packerman
Are you being purposely obtuse?Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
"midtable PL team" is what I said. I'm not saying 45k people would turn up to watch us play Luton, Coventry or West Brom but if we were an established Premier League team finishing midtable then I don't see why 45k is an unreasonable average crowd considering we were selling out a 33k stadium in a relegation season.
When we averaged 38k in the top flight the division average was ~31k. The division average is now ~38k. Crowds on a whole have increased since then, why do you think Cardiff City would be an exception?
You keep saying we only get big crowds for big games. Cup finals, promotions, etc and that our support is only ~16k. The Premier League is a big draw, one that's proven to draw our fairweather fans out in their thousands. If we spent 5 years in the Premier League do you think our 33k crowds would drop back to the ~20k average we've been having in the Championship for the past several years.
I think West Ham have a much larger catchment area and historic support base, but I think you could be right. If City had a ground that held 45,000-50,000, I think 45,000 average is viable for a mid table ranked premier league team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Canton Kev
We would achieve those gates with more difficulty than others; we would have to offer student prices, large away allocations and have good value tickets, but I don't think it's entirely unrealistic.
I do think City's support is pretty fickle mind.
I wish you'd stop attention seeking for replies. You always have to take it that step furtherQuote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
On a separate note, If Bristol Rovers had a brand new 25,000 seater stadium , do you think they would fill it ?
Bristol City fans I know think Rovers are a small club, however , I think they are bigger than Bristol City.
They don'tQuote:
Originally Posted by Swiss Peter
Along with man City there are plenty of empty seats on view
You are fishing for luckiesQuote:
Originally Posted by Canton Kev
If , maybe etc
Rovers have a very good away following but I think they lack that extra few thousand to trouble Bristol CityQuote:
Originally Posted by TWGL1
2 top flight appearances in the last 60 years haven't helped though.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Which doesn't happen to big clubs ?Quote:
Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish
17 years we spent in the lower leagues
Sheffield Wed , Sunderland , Leeds ......they tend to drag themselves back . And it's because they are big clubs ?
The other factor is in Wales people don't associate or have allegiances with local areas as the do in England. We [the population in general] are more likely to get enthused about a national success than something that's parochial. The Rugby clubs in Wales are poorly supported compared to those in England..Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
A few thoughts about our attendances and basing them on success.
In terms of average league position we're ranked 39th.
In terms of seasons spent in the top division we're ranked 40th.
In terms of seasons spent in the top 2 divisions we're ranked 36th.
Our average attendance is ranked 32nd. That would suggest our crowds have been decent enough given our overall league performance. Had our attendance been ranked 50th or something, we could easily suggest that our crowds haven't supported the club well enough. Preston's average league ranking is 28th yet their average crowds are ranked 37th. There's a club that possibly isn't so well supported.
That might be because rugby is posh in England.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish
What do you think that our hardcore support was 25 years ago?Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
We sem to be bang average when it comes to crowds. We get more or less what we should in comparison to how good or bad we are and what level we play at. Our 2 seasons in the premier suggest that applies there also so if we were a mid table prem side i am sure we would be around the 45k mark. For the big games we could get 60k plus without too much difficulty. Nothing special about that mind. Of course criwds would drop as we went down etc...
Wales used to get 74,000 for night matches at the Millennium Stadium, I’m assuming at least 40,000 of them would watch Cardiff against Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool and…… West Ham :hehe:Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Dougal
You're absolutely kidding on if you don't think West Ham can't sustain that. Their support base is basically all of Essex and most of east London. If you don't like West Ham, fair enough, but they are absolutely 100% a big club in terms of their support.
Also, I've never heard of anybody (Cardiff fans or otherwise) refer to us as a big club, so I don't understand why you seem to have such a chip on your shoulder about that. We've got the potential to be a big club, sure, but I don't think anybody seriously claims that we are.
I guarantee that if we were semi-competitive in the PL, we'd get 30-33k every week. Would most of those people be Johnny Come Latelys? Probably. But that's the thing with sustained success, people stick around. Then they take their kids, and they become fans, and then those kids go with their friends from school, and so on.
But we never have been competitive in the top flight (or at least not for 60 odd years), so none of that has happened. Add to that the hooligan reputation that the club couldn't shake for years, and it's not surprising.
Whether or not we could fill the Millennium Stadium on a weekly is up for debate, but if we even finished top 10 in the Prem for 3 years in a row we would 100% be looking at 40-50k IMO.
Post of the week. Sludge seemed to think that just by getting to the Championship that we should be selling out every home game.Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerlyJohnnyBreadhead
If you are suggesting that Arsenal don't sell out their league matches then, sorry, but you are simply wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Undoubtably a big club with a lot of support. Some of my relatives were originally from east London, Hammers, and in the time honoured tradition moved further east out into greater Essex.
Obviously east London is a relatively big area, but what I have been surprised by since living here myself now is - outside of the areas around the old Boleyn Ground - is how few signs of West Ham support I come across regularly. In the area I currently live in, which is about equidistant from Spurs and West Ham, is how much more Spurs support I see about the place (shirts, buttons, posters in shops, graff, etc). Easily the majority. Which may say more about relative success, and ease of getting to either ground (plus the Arsenal), than anything but a small thing that surprised me since moving here anyway.
Why do they get empty seats at home games all around the stadium then ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiss Peter
You think our 16 k hardcore support will stick around if we get relegated ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuerto
You have never heard of anybody referring to us as a big club ?Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerlyJohnnyBreadhead
That's part of the problem I am afraid
That's another deluded pal for you thenQuote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
Our crowds when we got to the championship were a huge let down
Dave Jones talked about it the press and its one of the few things he was right about
We get smaller crowds than you'd like because we are shit and there is plenty to do in Cardiff.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Other clubs get more whilst being shit because there is **** all to do in their local areas, and they also have histories of sustained periods in the top flight recently.
It's not hard.
As usual, we end up arguing on here for pointless, hypothetical reasons.
I think too many are being unfair on Sludge because I think he’s more right than wrong about our support.
First up, we’re a pretty sh*tty club who play fairly sh*t football most of the time and as others have alluded to, we’ve still got the hooligan reputation to deal with (Bristol City toilets, The Pedo Song, Pitch invasions last season). Add to this, something both Sludge and I 100% agree on, and that is we’re not a diverse club as far as fan base is concerned and we’ve both posted about this before. We are not welcoming. This is not about being racist (though sometimes I do wonder) it’s about being welcoming.
People may not like this next bit but we’re not really welcoming to a large number of English Cardiff residents either who don’t like the over-emphasis on being a Welsh club especially as we play in the English league. A large number will have been season ticket holders in our PL season and are vital to the economy of the club. But why stick around after relegation?
We’ve made CCS the home of Welsh football and I think, as a club, that doesn’t help Cardiff City. Others won’t like this. Wales matches sell out for the big games, tonight we play Portsmouth and I reckon if Newport County were playing them at Rodney Parade tonight, they’d get more support than we’re going to get.
It’s f*cking expensive to follow a football club these days and I think too many of the life-long supporters or hardcore fans forget that if you just want to go and watch a good football match and have a good day out, then we’re not really the club for that. We’re hard work.
Just a quick word on the Arsenal fanbase, I’ve still got close links with club from my time in London and ex colleagues, friends, who are still ST holders and I can absolutely say that they do not sell out for over half their matches these days at The Emirates.
Only about 6-8 clubs would sell out the the big PL grounds (obviously smaller capacity grounds like us wouldn’t have a problem). Whether we like it or not, the London clubs in the PL (including Brentford) won’t have a problem selling out for the big matches e.g. Liverpool, Spurs, Manchester City etc.
A massive part of the attraction at Arsenal before they moved from Highbury was the football (some of the best league football you could wish for) and The Champions League matches. Even at The Emirates , the CL matches for the early stages don’t sell out these days and you won’t have a problem getting a ticket to the Europa football KOs at 19:45 on a school day in London.
Add to that, the massive numbers of corporate tickets that end up with the touts and are laundered through other businesses (keep in mind that huge numbers were bought by investment companies) and the markup is 300-400% for big games (yes they do sell those) but less for Villa or Brighton (and no, they make a loss on those as they just don’t sell them all) then there are a lot of empty seats at The Emirates for a lot of league games.
We didn’t sell out for the evening matches in the PL season against sh*t sides and then there’s the fixture changes because SKY can just f*ck with them whenever they want.
A regular 30K of support would be good for us in the PL but if we drop down another division then I reckon we’ll be around 12K on a good day but drop to under 10K most of the time.
Just one final point, it’s too easy to say there’s more to do in Cardiff than say Sunderland but Cardiff is not a football city and hasn’t been since the nutters trashed the reputation of the club and we still don’t market the club as a welcoming place to come. In fact, when was the last time you saw a match at CSS advertised?
As I say, many people don’t want to hear this stuff, and that’s part of our problem.
Because people don’t turn up. Arsenal themselves estimate if you’re in the queue for a season ticket it’s a 5-10 year wait.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Isn't league game capacity at West Ham 62500 ? There are 66000 seats but they are not able to use all of them due to safety restrictions. Therefore Spurs stadium at 62850 is still the biggest actual capacity.Quote:
Originally Posted by TWGL1
That's true but they run a scheme where ST ticket seats can be resold to members if they can't make it and they quite often don't sell them (ironically, the illegal ones do sell because they're part business deals or they sell to tourists). Arsenal have various membership schemes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Canton Kev
I wasn't even eligible to buy a Reading ticket even though I've been a ST holder since moving back to Cardiff in 2011. It's a f*cking disgrace tbh.
You have to have a system for allocating away tickets to our fans, otherwise it would be a free for all. Our system is fair and season ticket holders do get priority although initially it is based on away attendance for the previous season. There is nothing wrong with that, to reward loyal fans who regularly travel. The number of tickets that we get for each game is decided by the home team, so I would suggest that if you cant get a ticket for every away game that you have a moan at the other club for not giving us enough, rather than City who are trying to be fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew
You're right. I will have a moan at the other clubs too. However, am I right in saying that if you bought a season ticket last season and went to 5 aways but had never been to a City game prior to that, then someone like myself who's committed up front to the club for over a decade is treated like sh*t? See where I'm coming from?Quote:
Originally Posted by dml1954
Edit: if someone had committed to say Arsenal for that length of time, they would be eligible to buy a decent ST at the Emirates but I couldn't go to Reading.
I do get that our allocation is a factor. It also p*ssed me off at just how empty the whatever-they-call-Reading-ground these days was.
By the time Jones left we'd added 10k to our attendance. It was always going to take time to build up crowds after nearly 2 decades of shit. The new stadium helped with that, as did (in the end) regular promotion pushes.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Did you expect to see Ninian Park full because we were promoted to the second tier? Nothing in our history suggested that would happen.
In our first 5 seasons in the Championship we had a relegation battle, Black Friday, sales of cult heroes in Gabbidon, Kavanagh, Earnshaw, and mostly crap football. We had a fantastic 3 months to open the 2006/07 season before the worst end to a season in our history. We lost 2k in our average attendance the following season and that would have been more had we not had the run to the FA cup final. Once we started competing around the top of the table, crowds improved.
Historically, our crowds have never improved by much after promotion from the third tier. Since the 70s, we've been relegated three times to the third tier. On 2 of those occasions our crowds went up. That's why I wouldn't expect a mass exodus if we ever did go down.
The big crowd puller is the Premier League and promotion attempts. And do you know what? We're no different from any other club who have had relatively little time in the top division. You keep avoiding the fact that those teams with the most loyal crowds are invariably those with the longest histories in the top flight.
You might call them Johnny Come Latelys but we need them. A decade in the top flight and they bring more friends and family. We convert them to the religion of Cardiff City. We grow a fan base. We won't playing in the bottom half of the Championship. That's a fact. Hardly any clubs would
I understand from Pearcey that Reading made the decision to cut away numbers to make their ground more intimidating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew
I think this is a really good point and think has a huge bearing on PL relegation. But Eric, if we play football like we did last season then do you really think that if we got relegated to L1 that we wouldn't shed around 30%? Maybe not the ST holders in the first relegation season but if we didn't go up, and the football didn't improve, then I really couldn't imagine much more than around 10K on a good day and ST sales to gradually decline.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
It's all hypothetical anyway and you're a stats person so there must be a marketing algorithm somewhere that predicts this stuff (I'm not suggesting you have one but I rather hope that there is one somewhere). I'm plucking figures out of thin air here.
I read that but was Pearcey joking? Looking at just how poor their support was I just don't know (I'm not suggesting Pearcey you're making this up!). I follow the Greek Superleague and thought I was watching one of their matches outside of the top 3 or 4 clubs it was so empty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
No it’s correct. Reading used to have a block next to the away end reserved for overflow if clubs sold out. That took the away end capacity to about 3500/4000.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew
Reading then put their singing section in that overflow block meaning they’re now limited to only 2000 away fans.
I’m led to believe West Ham have more “useable” seats than Tottenham and have installed measures like this (next to the away fans ) to decrease segregation Attachment 5080Quote:
Originally Posted by dml1954
I think we have discussed this before , but it must cost reading around £600k per season in lost away ticket revenueQuote:
Originally Posted by Canton Kev
They could hire a choir and full orchestra for less than that and get more atmosphere! :hehe:Quote:
Originally Posted by TWGL1
Bloody hell. As TWGL1 says, that's costing them over the course of a season. When Reading scored the winner, there's wasn't much noise. Cardiff fans could be heard though! :ayatollah:Quote:
Originally Posted by Canton Kev
Edit: I didn't mean they were cheering the winner!