40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

October 7th was incredibly rare

An appalling atrocity

What do you think the 4000 deaths of children in bombing by Israel is ?

It's still going on , today

The UN have described it as an atrocity

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FFS - The fact you have to ask that.... what do you think I think of it?
The loss of anyone, man woman or child or unborn baby is terrible.

At least in some small way, some and only some in Gaza had the chance to get out, otherwise it could be even worse, Hamas ordered some to stay put. The people slaughtered, raped, shot, burnt and beheaded on Oct 7 in the Hamas attack didnt get a warning or werent even aware of what was about to happen. An eye for an eye never works - but in that region - it certainly is the MO.

My opinion - Israel wont stop until they have Hamas wiped out and they wont leave until a UN peace keeping force turn up.

Why do you think the UN have not put a peace keeping force in there ?
Do you think Hamas now regret being the architects of their own destruction ?

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Originally Posted by pipster

FFS - The fact you have to ask that.... what do you think I think of it?
The loss of anyone, man woman or child or unborn baby is terrible.

At least in some small way, some and only some in Gaza had the chance to get out, otherwise it could be even worse, Hamas ordered some to stay put. The people slaughtered, raped, shot, burnt and beheaded on Oct 7 in the Hamas attack didnt get a warning or werent even aware of what was about to happen. An eye for an eye never works - but in that region - it certainly is the MO.

My opinion - Israel wont stop until they have Hamas wiped out and they wont leave until a UN peace keeping force turn up.

Why do you think the UN have not put a peace keeping force in there ?
Do you think Hamas now regret being the architects of their own destruction ?

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The firing of lazer guided bombs knowing they will kill innocent kids is murder and no better than the murder of innocents in Israel

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I have watched it

No evidence at all

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So comment on one aspect of his research and explain why he's mistaken in that area?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The firing of lazer guided bombs knowing they will kill innocent kids is murder and no better than the murder of innocents in Israel

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You didn't answer his question.

This is what he asked >> "Do you think Hamas now regret being the architects of their own destruction ?"

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

You didn't answer his question.

This is what he asked >> "Do you think Hamas now regret being the architects of their own destruction ?"

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I thought that was a joke

Hamas don't care wether Israel kills 100000 fighters or none at all

Israel can talk about flattening the whole of the middle east if it wants to, there will always be Arabs ready to kill Israelis and vice versa , Israel will never eradicate terrorism wether its hamas or a solitary suicide bomber , its all the same thing

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

So comment on one aspect of his research and explain why he's mistaken in that area?

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I want you lot to provide evidence , proper evidence

Not academic reading of previous fairy stories

It shouldn't be difficult

But it is because no evidence exists

Something on film ?

God talking to his followers in a field , filmed by the BBC

If God is this incredible superhuman being , around through the ages that's not going to be difficult for him to do

I don't want one of his brainwashed followers like you or the bloke in the video telling me he exists

I want evidence

You know there isn't any we know that but I suppose it's a game

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I want you lot to provide evidence , proper evidence

Not academic reading of previous fairy stories

It shouldn't be difficult

But it is because no evidence exists

Something on film ?

God talking to his followers in a field , filmed by the BBC

If God is this incredible superhuman being , around through the ages that's not going to be difficult for him to do

I don't want one of his brainwashed followers like you or the bloke in the video telling me he exists

I want evidence

You know there isn't any we know that but I suppose it's a game

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It says a great deal about anyone watching the video concerned if they consider it to be good evidence of the resurrection etc. It's absolutely vacuous.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

It says a great deal about anyone watching the video concerned if they consider it to be good evidence of the resurrection etc. It's absolutely vacuous.

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Nothing in it at all

If I spend 200 quid on blow up dolls my bank account will be minus 200 quid and 2 days later Gloria will arrive in the post

That's physical evidence

If you break into someone's house and steal their tv and forget to wear gloves then your dna and fingerprints will be left on the TV

Solid, undisputed evidence that you are a thief and are guilty

That's what we heathens want , solid evidence

And given the power of God as told to us by his followers then it should be easy to provide

What someone said in an old book is not evidence

It's 2023 , it's time to prove he exists

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I thought that was a joke

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Bollox you did.

Interesting to hear that Yaz Ashmawi (the man who glitter bombed your hero) is planning on doing some interesting things at the 'march' on Saturday

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

OK, so you don't have a world view. Out of interest, this is the world view of the atheist Richard Dawkins:

“We are survival machines – robot vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes. Our genes made us. We animals exist for their preservation and are nothing more than throwaway survival machines. The world of the selfish gene is one of savage competition, ruthless exploitation and deceit”.

“If there is ever a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored”.

(Both quotations from Dawkins's book “River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life”).

What a sad world he describes. One wonders how he reconciles that view with his own life experiences and how the concept of love and kindness ever came into being.

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I'm not here to defend Richard Dawkins but if you were to know anything about him he discusses such things - and even describes himself as 'a romantic soul', cries when he listens to music and discusses the topic of love. I think you are extremely ill-informed regarding this matter. No surprises there.

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Originally Posted by pipster

Bollox you did.

Interesting to hear that Yaz Ashmawi (the man who glitter bombed your hero) is planning on doing some interesting things at the 'march' on Saturday

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Statements like hamas have been architects of their own destruction are nonsense and I can only think they are a joke

You asked me if pie was my hero previously

Are you asking me again ?

He's not but he's extremely funny and right on the money

Very few people are standing up for this ghastly woman , even in her government

What about you ?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Statements like hamas have been architects of their own destruction are nonsense and I can only think they are a joke

You asked me if pie was my hero previously

Are you asking me again ?

He's not but he's extremely funny and right on the money

Very few people are standing up for this ghastly woman , even in her government

What about you ?

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I think the question about Hamas and its destruction is a reasonable one. It may have bargained on a wider conflagration to further its aims but that seems quite a way away and in any event shows its cynicism and callousness for the people it purports to protect!

What some self publicising feckwit has to do with it (Yaz Ashmawi but Pipster equally fits the bill) is anyone's guess!

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

I think the question about Hamas and its destruction is a reasonable one. It may have bargained on a wider conflagration to further its aims but that seems quite a way away and in any event shows its cynicism and callousness for the people it purports to protect!

What some self publicising feckwit has to do with it (Yaz Ashmawi but Pipster equally fits the bill) is anyone's guess!

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Well for me it's likely that in 100 years when we are long dead that another hamas or hamas type monster will be in place

Desperate times breed desperate people or in the case of hamas savages

But hamas won't care a toss if it's they are someone else who is killing Jews

I really don't see the question is relevant at all

Until a 2 state solution ......probably never ....is achieved this madness and counter madness will continue

All that can be done in the absence of peace is to keep a lid on the killing

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well for me it's likely that in 100 years when we are long dead that another hamas or hamas type monster will be in place

Desperate times breed desperate people or in the case of hamas savages

But hamas won't care a toss if it's they are someone else who is killing Jews

I really don't see the question is relevant at all

Until a 2 state solution ......probably never ....is achieved this madness and counter madness will continue

All that can be done in the absence of peace is to keep a lid on the killing

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But the question was about Hamas in its current iteration, not what else this may spawn. Not many people talk about Al Queda or even ISIS these days but I would guess as long as there is a cause some people will rally to whatever flag is fluttering. I have little doubt that without a political solution the future you describe is the most likely scenario.

The problem is that Hamas disappear, but new groups emerge. There is a long history of Islamic extremism now, not helped by proxy Shia/Sunni conflicts, Iran, Saudi Arabia and all the rest of it.

What, I guess, Israel wants is to so brutally eliminate Hamas that no one would want to bring it upon themselves to wish to be ruled by them again. Whether that works or not is up for debate, but I'm sceptical. How many of us have ever known peace in the middle east?

For me it's hard to see peace in the wider region while Iran is the theocracy that it is and also whilst we don't have a proper two-state solution to Palestine and Israel (thats why the river to the sea chant matters..it takes us further from peace) - Israel isn't going anywhere, that needs to be accepted and so too is Palestine. It could be wiped off the map, but that woul rightly provoke such outrage that a war of annihilation would surely follow?

The irony is that whilst the wider middle east is in its usual state of unease, it has never been richer or had more influence globally - the Qatar and Saudi world cups help demonstrate that.

What needs to happen? For me, the complete destruction of Hamas, followed by a global effort much like the post WW2 era to build a proper and viable two party state - Israel withdrawing from the west bank etc, some kind of transport link from the West Bank to Gaza, I dunno, but things can't carry on like this.

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

But the question was about Hamas in its current iteration, not what else this may spawn. Not many people talk about Al Queda or even ISIS these days but I would guess as long as there is a cause some people will rally to whatever flag is fluttering. I have little doubt that without a political solution the future you describe is the most likely scenario.

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That's exactly what I meant in that in reality it's a pointless question

I don't really care

Insert next insane terror group

Rinse and repeat

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

The problem is that Hamas disappear, but new groups emerge. There is a long history of Islamic extremism now, not helped by proxy Shia/Sunni conflicts, Iran, Saudi Arabia and all the rest of it.

What, I guess, Israel wants is to so brutally eliminate Hamas that no one would want to bring it upon themselves to wish to be ruled by them again. Whether that works or not is up for debate, but I'm sceptical. How many of us have ever known peace in the middle east?

For me it's hard to see peace in the wider region while Iran is the theocracy that it is and also whilst we don't have a proper two-state solution to Palestine and Israel (thats why the river to the sea chant matters..it takes us further from peace) - Israel isn't going anywhere, that needs to be accepted and so too is Palestine. It could be wiped off the map, but that woul rightly provoke such outrage that a war of annihilation would surely follow?

The irony is that whilst the wider middle east is in its usual state of unease, it has never been richer or had more influence globally - the Qatar and Saudi world cups help demonstrate that.

What needs to happen? For me, the complete destruction of Hamas, followed by a global effort much like the post WW2 era to build a proper and viable two party state - Israel withdrawing from the west bank etc, some kind of transport link from the West Bank to Gaza, I dunno, but things can't carry on like this.

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Well that's not going to work

Further attacks on gaza in the hunt for hamas will lead to more martyrs and future generations wanting to kill Israelis

We need a UN peace keeping force and a two state solution

And the acceptance that its always going to be a area of bloody conflict , even after a homeland for the Palestinians

Blowing the bejesus out of gaza in the vain hope it will kill all the terrorists is just playing silly soldier games

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well that's not going to work

Further attacks on gaza in the hunt for hamas will lead to more martyrs and future generations wanting to kill Israelis

We need a UN peace keeping force and a two state solution

And the acceptance that its always going to be a area of bloody conflict , even after a homeland for the Palestinians

Blowing the bejesus out of gaza in the vain hope it will kill all the terrorists is just playing silly soldier games

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Ur probably right. It probably won't work, but then nothing else does either really

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Ur probably right. It probably won't work, but then nothing else does either really

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Giving the Palestinians a homeland and having a peacekeeping force and a Liberal Israeli government ......

Even all this together , with a good wind ......will not end the violence ......it will reduce it

That's the best to hope for

Peace when land and religion is involved is not possible imo

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

I'm not here to defend Richard Dawkins but if you were to know anything about him he discusses such things - and even describes himself as 'a romantic soul', cries when he listens to music and discusses the topic of love. I think you are extremely ill-informed regarding this matter. No surprises there.

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On the contrary, that's precisely why I asked how he can reconcile his ideas about the selfish gene with the concept of love! I have watched many videos on YouTube when he is in conversation with people like John Lennox for example and heard him speak quite emotionally on times, particularly the later ones where he seems to be much calmer and relaxed in his dialogue. In the earlier ones he tends to be full-on evangelical atheist!

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

On the contrary, that's precisely why I asked how he can reconcile his ideas about the selfish gene with the concept of love! I have watched many videos on YouTube when he is in conversation with people like John Lennox for example and heard him speak quite emotionally on times, particularly the later ones where he seems to be much calmer and relaxed in his dialogue. In the earlier ones he tends to be full-on evangelical atheist!

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I think he reconciles his perspective very well and can easily explain the primitive impulses in play regarding our ancestral evolution and the more complex and nuanced behaviour we are capable of due to our intelligence and intellect. I think the failure here is your lack of understanding of his perspective rather than his perspective per se.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Why do you believe that Jesus was the son of God when the Jews don't? Why do you believe that he was the result of a virgin birth when the Jews don't? Why do you recognise the New Testament when the Jews don't?

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The Jews are still awaiting the Messiah. AIUI Jewish scholars claim that there are a number of translation errors from the original Hebrew which in turn nullify some of the claims about Jesus fulfilling the OT prophesies about the Messiah. Also the Jews expected their Messiah to come as a powerful king who would raise an army to rid Israel of the Roman occupation. Instead Jesus came as the exact opposite - a servant figure, who paradoxically caused them trouble by starting to stir up the population and thereby threatening the status and power that the religious hierarchy enjoyed at that time. By having him executed by the Romans they thought that would be the end of their troubles.

I suppose logically then the Jews could not accept the New Testament as to them it was based on at best a misinterpretation and at worst a lie.

C.S. Lewis popularized the argument that Jesus was either a liar or a lunatic or the Messiah. I think it was Dawkins who added a fourth possibility – that he was deluded. From what I read from the gospels he was not a lunatic.

He could have been a convincing liar I suppose but he “put his money where his mouth was” in the compassionate way he dealt with people and the miracles of healing he performed. Also if he was a liar what did he hope to gain by deceit – not a lot it seems!

Deluded – well that might be arguable bar for the fact that he was resurrected after being dead for 3 days. That would take some delusion on his part I would say!

Hence I believe he was the Messiah and the New Testament is a true account of his life and works. Maybe the Jews will accept him when he returns in the Second Coming as it is will not be anything like the previous one and more in line with Jewish expectations of what the Messiah will be like perhaps?

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

I think he reconciles his perspective very well and can easily explain the primitive impulses in play regarding our ancestral evolution and the more complex and nuanced behaviour we are capable of due to our intelligence and intellect. I think the failure here is your lack of understanding of his perspective rather than his perspective per se.

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I seem to remember the "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" theory which was meant to explain the evolution of human behaviour. I'm not 100% sure if Dawkins was the originator of that though? I think there is a big difference between that and the more altruistic behaviour which we humans can exhibit where there is no personal gain from an action.

C.S. Lewis once said: First, human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and cannot really get rid of it. Secondly, that they do not in fact behave in that way. They know the Law of Nature; they break it.

The term 'Law of Nature' refers to the fact that it is part of our human nature and is therefore something we all know by virtue of just being human. Lewis believed that we know right from wrong, and still defy it.

Where do you think the notion of knowing right from wrong comes from?

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

I seem to remember the "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" theory which was meant to explain the evolution of human behaviour. I'm not 100% sure if Dawkins was the originator of that though? I think there is a big difference between that and the more altruistic behaviour which we humans can exhibit where there is no personal gain from an action.

C.S. Lewis once said: First, human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and cannot really get rid of it. Secondly, that they do not in fact behave in that way. They know the Law of Nature; they break it.

The term 'Law of Nature' refers to the fact that it is part of our human nature and is therefore something we all know by virtue of just being human. Lewis believed that we know right from wrong, and still defy it.

Where do you think the notion of knowing right from wrong comes from?

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Yes, behaviour that benefits a whole group plays a huge part.

Just to bring this back a bit closer to the subject of the thread - Palestinian Anglicans are getting more upset with the lack of support they have had from the Archbishop of Canterbury - who they accuse of relegating their plight and playing UK politics with his position and platform:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...truth-to-power