Fine for going to work?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

This is ironic considering the real Orwellian nightmare involved Winston Smith going to work in a 'cubicle' office environment.

We won't have the resources to travel huge distances let alone the utilities to heat/water/light huge office complexes. Manufacturing is different though. Younger people today aren't going to want to or be able to work in corporate environments. The simple truth is we won't have the resources to afford the luxury of travel to a location to do exactly the same thing as we could do from home. Homes will be different anyway.

---

It is ironic in that sense, I agree, although far more to Orwell than 1984 and he wrote a lot about the importance of society and social interaction on human levels.

Also, the boss being able to contact you via a screen in your own home is also a theme touched upon in 1984.

It certainly isnt for me, and I think a society that normalised this would be a very bad society, and at the very least would only benefit those with large enough or comfortable enough home lives.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JamesWales

It is ironic in that sense, I agree, although far more to Orwell than 1984 and he wrote a lot about the importance of society and social interaction on human levels.

Also, the boss being able to contact you via a screen in your own home is also a theme touched upon in 1984.

It certainly isnt for me, and I think a society that normalised this would be a very bad society, and at the very least would only benefit those with large enough or comfortable enough home lives.

---

I understand where you are coming from and CN makes some really good points that cover a wider issue, so I'd say that you're both right! My schedulers have phoned me today about jobs booked in while having to look after young kids, that ain't easy, although I suppose it reduces costs and disruption with child care. It's a difficult subject and people's needs really need to be considered.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

I understand where you are coming from and CN makes some really good points that cover a wider issue, so I'd say that you're both right! My schedulers have phoned me today about jobs booked in while having to look after young kids, that ain't easy, although I suppose it reduces costs and disruption with child care. It's a difficult subject and people's needs really need to be considered.

---

Without doubt, there is no one size fits all and the needs of different staff need to be taken into consideration. That said, I do quite strongly feel that all staff should be in the office at least once a fortnight if for no other reason than for their own wellbeing and a duty of care from the employer or else who knows what nightmare scenarios could be allowed to flourish - I really feel for some women with controlling husbands on this. I'm always reminded of a woman in work who would cry from time to time due to her homelife and would be comforted by people in the office. Well, no one see's you cry at home.

More generally, I think it's about what could be lost; social interaction, brainstorming, sharing ideas, holistic learning, cross-silo working, learning from eachother etc.

I have come to really dislike MS teams and I dont have a bad face, but I absolutely hate it. I hate the idea of my face and voice in other peoples homes. I also find that people simply do not listen or follow the meetings unlike in face-to-face settings. Speaking for where i work, things are taking much much longer. Stuff that may be sorted in a day may take two weeks. Other things may be more efficient, but it's hard to think of any examples.

The commute can be a pain, although personally I like the seperation of home from work and I enjoy reading on the train.

We also need to think more seriously about the impacts. Less commuting means less public transport, that will impact the poorest and those who don't work in sectors where people can WFH. Also, what of those in shared houses, or with difficult homelives or in one bed flats. Coming in the office less may be great for some, but what if we lose the office alltogether? Again, I know someone who worked at Cardiff University and was told their office is now gone. She grew to despise her work that she previously loved. Totally got her down. There will be other examples, but they point to a balanced approach

Do we really want to normalise this? Do we really think this is what is best for people at the beginning of their careers or even as they are progressing throughout it?

I'm not rallying against choice and I'd support peoples right to WFH, but I do think it can be hugely damaging to individuals, business and society when its prolonged as we have seen.

And as for the specific WG act of threatening fines...I think even the biggest WG fan would accept that is a step too far

Good post James.
When I was working in the 90's (before retirement) I often used to commute two hours each way from between Newark/Lincoln to London. I was able to work from home if I wished and 2-3 days a week would go into the office or visit clients. I had lots of staff under my control - Computer programmers. I used to tell them I couldn't care less if they went to the seaside or cut the grass during the week if at home - as long as they delivered on time!! Time shifting suited me and I would do the same by and large, often working well into the evening.

I do feel very sorry for those who earn not very much , maybe this (so called socialist decision ) should be backed it up with extra statutory sick pay rather than putting pressure on the lowly paid .

It nice for those in middle management or public sector management roles to clap, they never went through Furlough and its 80% payments scheme .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by life on mars

I do feel very sorry for those who earn not very much , maybe this (so called socialist decision ) should be backed it up with extra statutory sick pay rather than putting pressure on the lowly paid .

It nice for those in middle management or public sector management roles to clap, they never went through Furlough and its 80% payments scheme .

---

Jesus, you're hard work, aren't you? All of a sudden you're concerned about people on low income, poor working conditions, a lack of proper sick pay, sounds like those people could be on Zero hour contracts, stuck in the gig economy etc. You do realise how this has come about, don't you? Forget party politics as well, because both sides of the coin have contributed towards the things that you seem so concerned about, yet i can't recall you ever mentioning it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maurice Swan

Good post James.
When I was working in the 90's (before retirement) I often used to commute two hours each way from between Newark/Lincoln to London. I was able to work from home if I wished and 2-3 days a week would go into the office or visit clients. I had lots of staff under my control - Computer programmers. I used to tell them I couldn't care less if they went to the seaside or cut the grass during the week if at home - as long as they delivered on time!! Time shifting suited me and I would do the same by and large, often working well into the evening.

---

Very good post Maurice.

I really wish more and more employers and managers would embrace your very enlightened practice; I am 100% sure it would increase productivity and staff relations significantly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JamesWales

Without doubt, there is no one size fits all and the needs of different staff need to be taken into consideration. That said, I do quite strongly feel that all staff should be in the office at least once a fortnight if for no other reason than for their own wellbeing and a duty of care from the employer or else who knows what nightmare scenarios could be allowed to flourish - I really feel for some women with controlling husbands on this. I'm always reminded of a woman in work who would cry from time to time due to her homelife and would be comforted by people in the office. Well, no one see's you cry at home.

More generally, I think it's about what could be lost; social interaction, brainstorming, sharing ideas, holistic learning, cross-silo working, learning from eachother etc.

I have come to really dislike MS teams and I dont have a bad face, but I absolutely hate it. I hate the idea of my face and voice in other peoples homes. I also find that people simply do not listen or follow the meetings unlike in face-to-face settings. Speaking for where i work, things are taking much much longer. Stuff that may be sorted in a day may take two weeks. Other things may be more efficient, but it's hard to think of any examples.

The commute can be a pain, although personally I like the seperation of home from work and I enjoy reading on the train.

We also need to think more seriously about the impacts. Less commuting means less public transport, that will impact the poorest and those who don't work in sectors where people can WFH. Also, what of those in shared houses, or with difficult homelives or in one bed flats. Coming in the office less may be great for some, but what if we lose the office alltogether? Again, I know someone who worked at Cardiff University and was told their office is now gone. She grew to despise her work that she previously loved. Totally got her down. There will be other examples, but they point to a balanced approach

Do we really want to normalise this? Do we really think this is what is best for people at the beginning of their careers or even as they are progressing throughout it?

I'm not rallying against choice and I'd support peoples right to WFH, but I do think it can be hugely damaging to individuals, business and society when its prolonged as we have seen.

And as for the specific WG act of threatening fines...I think even the biggest WG fan would accept that is a step too far

---

Good post.
I think you've captured the most valid points and hit on a number of other related ones.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JamesWales

More generally, I think it's about what could be lost; social interaction, brainstorming, sharing ideas, holistic learning, cross-silo working, learning from eachother etc.

---

Don't forget blue sky thinking, touching base and thinking outside the box

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by delmbox

Don't forget blue sky thinking, touching base and thinking outside the box

---

Ha ha brilliant 👍

I would also add that very often I would interview someone in the pub!!! None of that psychometric stuff.....I judged character (as well as ability...), and often took on people with 'odd' character that others would deem 'not suited' . I never regretted one decision - they all became loyal staff and usually went beyond their remit to help the client in non-contractual problems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by delmbox

Don't forget blue sky thinking, touching base and thinking outside the box

---

Not to ridicule JamesWales original post as i agreed with a lot of it, especially the isolation issues he spoke about with people having problems at home, although if i used the phrases you've just highlighted on one of my building sites i'd end up with a trowel shoved up my arse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maurice Swan

I would also add that very often I would interview someone in the pub!!! None of that psychometric stuff.....I judged character (as well as ability...), and often took on people with 'odd' character that others would deem 'not suited' . I never regretted one decision - they all became loyal staff and usually went beyond their remit to help the client in non-contractual problems.

---

You sound like my sort of guy Maurice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

Not to ridicule JamesWales original post as i agreed with a lot of it, especially the isolation issues he spoke about with people having problems at home, although if i used the phrases you've just highlighted on one of my building sites i'd end up with a trowel shoved up my arse.

---

Now imagine how cross-eyed you'd look with a hawk shoved up your aspidistra!

Sorry mate I couldn't resist that one; it is Christmas after all 😀

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dorcus

Now imagine how cross-eyed you'd look with a hawk shoved up your aspidistra!

Sorry mate I couldn't resist that one; it is Christmas after all ��

---

Yup, the old 'Bird of Prey' Fully loaded as well :hehe:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

Yup, the old 'Bird of Prey' Fully loaded as well :hehe:

---

Lol 👍

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Sounds a bit like prison. Actually, a lot like prison. Do you get your food via Deliveroo and gen. shopping via Amazon ?

---

I'm not sure how to read your post but it reads a lot like a dig i.e. a bit condescending. I can assure you that the real prison, for me, is being trapped in a neurodegenerative disease state. So, it's no surprise that my working conditions are well-suited to my disabilities. These working conditions were 'forced' upon me due to medical circumstances.

That said, I stand by everything I wrote which, incidentally was from a very personal viewpoint but I did touch upon the environmental costs of current work practices.

James makes a lot of good points about mental health for example. I would say this though, that for every positive that someone makes for office work, I could turn that into a negative, and, of course, you or anyone else can do the same to my preferences too.

One thing that struck me during the first lockdown was that people were going stir crazy for not being able to get out of the house after a few days/weeks when disabled people have been living like this with very little empathy or understanding for decades. There's always an assumption that people are the same as 'us' when in fact that's blatantly not true.

Something that tech and the kind of assistive tech and communication systems we now have means that for disabled people, we finally have a level playing field. The restrictions of conventional work practices have been removed. F*ck, we can even apply for jobs and positions and use our skills without bias and restrictions. Think about it for a moment. That's pretty f*cking amazing.

Maurice clearly knows that the quirky and different can be great employees. I like his approach and I wasn't surprised when he referenced programmers as we're a geeky bunch and work and think differently because our brains have been re-wired through computer languages.

I have five 4K screens in front of me rendering 3D animations for video games. I couldn't work in a conventional office environment as I rely on smart, voice-activated systems and write macros for Windows and Mac systems that will automatically perform tasks. If I lose feeling in my hands then I can use voice-activated systems. If I lose the use of my facial muscles, I can type. If I lose the use of both, I'm f*cked.

Without the tech then I'd be trapped. Without companies like Amazon and Deliveroo, I'd be trapped.

I wasn’t going to reply to your comments as it takes energy and valuable resources but there’s a wider issue and it’s kind of important to emphasise these points, at least, for me, it is. BTW there's no animosity on my part, I don't want to make anyone feel bad. You didn't know my personal circumstances. I mentioned in a post recently about being an advocate and activist for disability rights and I guess this is just me doing what I do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

Jesus, you're hard work, aren't you? All of a sudden you're concerned about people on low income, poor working conditions, a lack of proper sick pay, sounds like those people could be on Zero hour contracts, stuck in the gig economy etc. You do realise how this has come about, don't you? Forget party politics as well, because both sides of the coin have contributed towards the things that you seem so concerned about, yet i can't recall you ever mentioning it.

---

Do you think they should be fined then ??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dorcus

Now imagine how cross-eyed you'd look with a hawk shoved up your aspidistra!

Sorry mate I couldn't resist that one; it is Christmas after all 😀

---

Very funny , Xmas folk fined for going to work ffs , earning basic wages .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MOZZER2

well i,m going to follow the science and take my laptop up the local pub and work from there

happy xmas Mr Drakeford :xmashehe:

---

I actually that today .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by delmbox

Don't forget blue sky thinking, touching base and thinking outside the box

---

I think you should run that up the flag pole and see who salutes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon1959

I think you should run that up the flag pole and see who salutes.

---

Here's the skinny, we need to square the circle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

Here's the skinny, we need to square the circle.

---

Sorry, I forgot the :puke:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by life on mars

Very funny , Xmas folk fined for going to work ffs , earning basic wages .

---

Fine their employers instead. Have you just woken up from a two year hibernation?

What seems a ludicrous justification of the decision to fine employees £60 from Drakeford, but maybe I'm missing something?

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nor...-fine-22548468