No U turn on essential goods ban

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Who decided to decommission it in the first place? Sems to me like a pretty stupid thing to do when all the evidence suggested a winter spike in cases.

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You'll be pleased to hear that the new one being built next to the Heath will be completed by winter :thumbup:

The amount of traffic on the roads today, considering it is both half term and a supposed lockdown, seems to be quite a lot. Far more than the last time.
Everyone is going to work if they can't work at home, (or if their job isn't fecked because its in hospitality or non essential trading).
Even if this has any affect on the spike they won't know if it has brought down the 'r' figure for 3 weeks so I still won't be surprised if it goes on.
When it started the WG said it will end on the 9 Nov. Now they are saying it will be reviewed on the 9 Nov. If they know they have to keep it for at least 3 weeks why can't they be honest and tell people up front?
I hope it does stop as promised but I have a nasty feeling it won't. I hope I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

You'll be pleased to hear that the new one being built next to the Heath will be completed by winter :thumbup:

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That is remendously reassuring. I hope it comforts the people who need it now. By the way, winter what year?

This Welsh Lockdown is the Tories fault - https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...de-westminster

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

That is remendously reassuring. I hope it comforts the people who need it now. By the way, winter what year?

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Maybe just be less of a dick and read this:

https://gov.wales/ps33m-new-cardiff-...id-19-facility

Then come back and find something else to moan about that has no substance.

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Maybe just be less of a dick and read this:

https://gov.wales/ps33m-new-cardiff-...id-19-facility

Then come back and find something else to moan about that has no substance.

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I only asked why they decommissioned the other one. I'd have thought it would have been circumspect to have built one before you demolish the other. I didn't realise you'd take it personal!! I wouldn't wish to hurt you feelings.
I read it and it says they are building it. A board member is involved in the build and he said he 'hopes' it will be completed by the beginning of December. So in the mean while................. when does winter start for you?

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

What do you mean by your first sentence? Can you clarify it for me, please?

Also, which part(s) of Articles 82/83 in particular were you suggesting Drakeford has gone against?

From what I've read and how I've interpreted it, it suggests the opposite of Drakeford breaking any laws.

Every retailer is entitled to sell their items online, so the market is fair for everyone - so unless I'm missing something glaringly obvious, it looks like he's done nothing wrong by not allowing supermarkets to sell non-essential items during a pandemic when high street shops are closed.

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In my book he’s distorting competition. The Senedd is a dominant entity managing 5% of uk population. Assuming that supermarkets are spread evenly across the uk population, at a stroke he’s reduced the availability of a significant range of goods across 5% of the UKs supermarkets. He’s not done it for public health reasons, he’s done it to be seen to be fair, or level things up for non essential closed shops in Wales and to protect them from competition while closed. Ie Commercial reasons. I don’t think this is in the Senedd remit, and if you are interested have a look at the particular responsibilities dominant entities have in Competition law. This is why I think the whole thing will be softened once he has met with the supermarkets

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Who decided to decommission it in the first place? Sems to me like a pretty stupid thing to do when all the evidence suggested a winter spike in cases.

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Ducky and fawn, wanted their EGG tickets :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

What do you mean by your first sentence? Can you clarify it for me, please?

Also, which part(s) of Articles 82/83 in particular were you suggesting Drakeford has gone against?

From what I've read and how I've interpreted it, it suggests the opposite of Drakeford breaking any laws.

Every retailer is entitled to sell their items online, so the market is fair for everyone - so unless I'm missing something glaringly obvious, it looks like he's done nothing wrong by not allowing supermarkets to sell non-essential items during a pandemic when high street shops are closed.

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And I should have added that he’s done this to a population who are in lockdown and unable to easily source alternatives other than on line.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

In my book he’s distorting competition. The Senedd is a dominant entity managing 5% of uk population. Assuming that supermarkets are spread evenly across the uk population, at a stroke he’s reduced the availability of a significant range of goods across 5% of the UKs supermarkets. He’s not done it for public health reasons, he’s done it to be seen to be fair, or level things up for non essential closed shops in Wales and to protect them from competition while closed. Ie Commercial reasons. I don’t think this is in the Senedd remit, and if you are interested have a look at the particular responsibilities dominant entities have in Competition law. This is why I think the whole thing will be softened once he has met with the supermarkets

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Let's hope people in North Wales don't pop across the border to Warrington to buy "inessential items". Warrington has a high level of infection and has been given tier 3 status today.

I'm more and more convinced that the Welsh government is needing to suppress the virus by locking down early because the Nightingale hospital in the Principality Stadium has been decommissioned before the replacement facility in the Heath is completed. I presume the Principality Stadium facility has now gone as there is a match there on Saturday. Not good planning but hopefully luck will be on their side.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

In my book he’s distorting competition. The Senedd is a dominant entity managing 5% of uk population. Assuming that supermarkets are spread evenly across the uk population, at a stroke he’s reduced the availability of a significant range of goods across 5% of the UKs supermarkets. He’s not done it for public health reasons, he’s done it to be seen to be fair, or level things up for non essential closed shops in Wales and to protect them from competition while closed. Ie Commercial reasons. I don’t think this is in the Senedd remit, and if you are interested have a look at the particular responsibilities dominant entities have in Competition law. This is why I think the whole thing will be softened once he has met with the supermarkets

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Wouldn't a dominant entity usually be someone operating in that market and with a large proportion of the market?

If the Senydd sold a line of cheaply made clothing then you may have a point, but as far as I'm aware they don't

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

I only asked why they decommissioned the other one. I'd have thought it would have been circumspect to have built one before you demolish the other. I didn't realise you'd take it personal!! I wouldn't wish to hurt you feelings.
I read it and it says they are building it. A board member is involved in the build and he said he 'hopes' it will be completed by the beginning of December. So in the mean while................. when does winter start for you?

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Oh, Snags, you are incapable of hurting my feelings. I was simply calling you out for being a dick because you're desperately looking for an axe to grind when it comes to Welsh Labour (be it the council or members of the Sender).

When I gave you some good news about the new nightingale hospital you gave a sarcastic reply because it wasn't what you wanted to hear. That's incredibly dickish behaviour considering the subject matter.

The Dragon's Heart nightingale hospital is massive. The new one will allow 400 patients (which is in line with estimations of what may be required, apparently) and it's located directly next to the biggest hospital in Wales, which I'm sure you would agree makes logistical sense when it comes to transferring patients.

Winter for me starts 1st December, but reports say it will be completed "before winter" and it's "on track" to meet the expected need for beds.

This sounds like good news to me and it's good news for the Chief Exec of the University Health Board... But, please, tell everyone why you think it's shit and don't forget to use a fake anecdote that will help your argument.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

In my book he’s distorting competition. The Senedd is a dominant entity managing 5% of uk population. Assuming that supermarkets are spread evenly across the uk population, at a stroke he’s reduced the availability of a significant range of goods across 5% of the UKs supermarkets. He’s not done it for public health reasons, he’s done it to be seen to be fair, or level things up for non essential closed shops in Wales and to protect them from competition while closed. Ie Commercial reasons. I don’t think this is in the Senedd remit, and if you are interested have a look at the particular responsibilities dominant entities have in Competition law. This is why I think the whole thing will be softened once he has met with the supermarkets

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I don't see it at all. You mentioned competition law and then, when asked what specific law, you mentioned Article 82/83 of EU competition law.

I looked at them and couldn't find anything relevant other than something that Drakeford had actively done to meet one of those laws.

You've had a few opportunities to point out which one(s) in particular he's broken but haven't been forthcoming with a response.

I think it's fair to say that you have an opinion about this and you're going to stick with it... even though it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, I think.

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

I don't see it at all. You mentioned competition law and then, when asked what specific law, you mentioned Article 82/83 of EU competition law.

I looked at them and couldn't find anything relevant other than something that Drakeford had actively done to meet one of those laws.

You've had a few opportunities to point out which one(s) in particular he's broken but haven't been forthcoming with a response.

I think it's fair to say that you have an opinion about this and you're going to stick with it... even though it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, I think.

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That's fine. You asked my views I gave it to you. Maybe worth adding that I spent much of my working life heading up the commercial side of a large pharmaceutical business and competition law and how to utilise and interpret it was a significant part of the job.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

That's fine. You asked my views I gave it to you. Maybe worth adding that I spent much of my working life heading up the commercial side of a large pharmaceutical business and competition law and how to utilise and interpret it was a significant part of the job.

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And there was me wondering why you thought the Senedd was a dominant entity when these are undertakings that achieve a dominant market position.

Undertakings are defined as " any natural or legal person engaged in economic activity, regardless of its legal
status and the way in which it is financed. It includes companies, partnerships, firms, businesses, individuals operating as sole traders, agricultural cooperatives, associations of undertakings (e.g. trade associations), non-profit making organisations and (in some circumstances) public entities that offer goods or services on a given market.

With your extensive knowledge of commercial law perhaps you could explain how the Senedd meets the definition of an undertaking that has become a dominant entity?

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

And there was me wondering why you thought the Senedd was a dominant entity when these are undertakings that achieve a dominant market position.

Undertakings are defined as " any natural or legal person engaged in economic activity, regardless of its legal
status and the way in which it is financed. It includes companies, partnerships, firms, businesses, individuals operating as sole traders, agricultural cooperatives, associations of undertakings (e.g. trade associations), non-profit making organisations and (in some circumstances) public entities that offer goods or services on a given market.

With your extensive knowledge of commercial law perhaps you could explain how the Senedd meets the definition of an undertaking that has become a dominant entity?

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The definition is ' an entity that has economic activity' and includes the categories you mentioned. And dominance is defined at a very low% of a market.

The Wales government participates in quite a lot of commercials contracts and of course has to abide by Competition Law

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

The definition is ' an entity that has economic activity' and includes the categories you mentioned. And dominance is defined at a very low% of a market.

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So not the Senedd then that has zero % of the non-essential goods market?

QUOTE Xsnaggle.
Everyone is going to work if they can't work at home, (or if their job isn't fecked because its in hospitality or non essential trading).
Even if this has any affect on the spike they won't know if it has brought down the 'r' figure for 3 weeks so I still won't be surprised if it goes on.
When it started the WG said it will end on the 9 Nov. Now they are saying it will be reviewed on the 9 Nov. If they know they have to keep it for at least 3 weeks why can't they be honest and tell people up front?
I hope it does stop as promised but I have a nasty feeling it won't. I hope I'm wrong.[/QUOTE]

I havent watched or looked at much newstoday. Drakeford said it ends on 9th November. He was questioned and categorically said it will end.

Give us a link to this new development of it
not ending but now will be reviewed.

He was clear it ends. Businesses who have prepared to reopen will be seriously pissed off with this U turn a matter of days in.

Not good.

Nothing to indicate a change of policy on the official guidance page;-

https://gov.wales/coronavirus-firebr...sked-questions

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Nothing to indicate a change of policy on the official guidance page;-

https://gov.wales/coronavirus-firebr...sked-questions

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Lets see whats on the news.

Hopefully Xsnaggle can provide a link.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Nothing to indicate a change of policy on the official guidance page;-

https://gov.wales/coronavirus-firebr...sked-questions

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Watching Wales Today it was saying that Drakeford had stressed the economic reasons for shops not selling non essential goods but the legislation only allows them to do this for public health reasons so now they are saying it is to stop people making too many journeys to the shops!!

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

So not the Senedd then that has zero % of the non-essential goods market?

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Not sure what you are on about with zero %, but the Senedd certainly influenced 5% of the UK supermarket market by banning a range of what they say are non essential goods throughout supermarkets in Wales. And it turns out they have no authority to do this for economic reasons ie they say to be fair to/ to ensure a level field/ to level things out for those non essential shops they instructed to close.
So now they say it is for public health reasons but offer no rational why they want to do this now when it wasn’t necessary in their first lockdown.
They met with supermarket representatives today who probably told them they were acting outside their remit and tonight I was pleased to hear the spokesperson for the Wales retail consortia say that the likely outcome will be to open all aisles to customers whilst discouraging them from seeking non essential goods.
Some face saving common sense at last

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Lets see whats on the news.

Hopefully Xsnaggle can provide a link.

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I replied to Bob directly about what the news said on this

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

Watching Wales Today it was saying that Drakeford had stressed the economic reasons for shops not selling non essential goods but the legislation only allows them to do this for public health reasons so now they are saying it is to stop people making too many journeys to the shops!!

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I think Drakeford should give his citizens some credit for intelligence as I’m sure most will do non essential shopping at the same time that they do their essential shopping

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

And there was me wondering why you thought the Senedd was a dominant entity when these are undertakings that achieve a dominant market position.

Undertakings are defined as " any natural or legal person engaged in economic activity, regardless of its legal
status and the way in which it is financed. It includes companies, partnerships, firms, businesses, individuals operating as sole traders, agricultural cooperatives, associations of undertakings (e.g. trade associations), non-profit making organisations and (in some circumstances) public entities that offer goods or services on a given market.

With your extensive knowledge of commercial law perhaps you could explain how the Senedd meets the definition of an undertaking that has become a dominant entity?

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It’s to do with their influence on the market, not necessarily the market share an entity holds.Whilst each case can be different depending on market size etc it’s not unusual to be deemed dominant with a 5% share,
When you look at what the Senedd did unlawfully for commercial reasons was to trim the range of goods available to the general public throughout all supermarkets in Wales, at a time when the opportunities for the welsh public to travel to outlets that had a full range of goods on sale were non existent.

This is a bad period in our history
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54685886

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Originally Posted by life on mars

This is a bad period in our history
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54685886

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that's clearly some idiot in a Tesco, not the fault of the Welsh government

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Originally Posted by life on mars

This is a bad period in our history
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54685886

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I agree. Interesting to see Vaughan Gethin using a Jose Mourinho tactic of stariting an interview with something dramatic to deflect from the real issue of addressing the confusion and uprising over the non essential goods saga.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

I agree. Interesting to see Vaughan Gethin using a Jose Mourinho tactic of stariting an interview with something dramatic to deflect from the real issue of addressing the confusion and uprising over the non essential goods saga.

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Vaughan Gethin seems to be a terrible communicator. If he's next leader of Welsh Labour then it's in trouble.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

I agree. Interesting to see Vaughan Gethin using a Jose Mourinho tactic of stariting an interview with something dramatic to deflect from the real issue of addressing the confusion and uprising over the non essential goods saga.

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Never mind, someone robbed £20,000 worth of beauty products from St Mellons Tesco, if you've ever been to St mellons i'd say that beauty products are definitely essential.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Lets see whats on the news.

Hopefully Xsnaggle can provide a link.

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Why would you expect me to provide a link. I have no opinion on what is or is not an essential item except that I see no reason why alcohol should be..

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Why would you expect me to provide a link. I have no opinion on what is or is not an essential item except that I see no reason why alcohol should be..

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????

Youve said the lockdown is now being reviewed on 9th November.

Its now clear thats not the case after seeing the news.

No need for a link as there wont be one.

Agree on alcohol though.

Wales national lockdown in new year 'likely', says minister
A second Wales-wide lockdown in the new year is looking increasingly likely, according to a Welsh Government minister.

Lee Waters, a deputy minister responsible for economy and transport, said the current firebreak was unlikely to be the last in Wales - with England "expected" to follow.

The Welsh Government had previously only gone as far as saying it "could not rule out" another lockdown.

The current national 17-day lockdown is due to be reviewed when it comes to an end on 9 November.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

I think Drakeford should give his citizens some credit for intelligence as I’m sure most will do non essential shopping at the same time that they do their essential shopping

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Wasn't this point about buying non essential stuff at the same time as food made at the start of the National Lockdown in March.

I would double check but I have done so much fact checking and reading through articles since march I can't be bothered tonight

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Maybe just be less of a dick and read this:

https://gov.wales/ps33m-new-cardiff-...id-19-facility

Then come back and find something else to moan about that has no substance.

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Well I replied to you.
In the article you so obligingly provided it says quote "“The build will be aligned to the de-commissioning programme of the Dragon’s Heart Hospital at the Principality Stadium which we will have vacated by the end of October and will enable the WRU to start making their own plans at the stadium. As a health service we will take on board all of the learning from Dragon’s Heart Hospital in terms of design and clinical requirements for a temporary surge hospital and work to the national modelling requirements. and will enable the WRU to start making their own plans at the stadium. As a health service we will take on board all of the learning from Dragon’s Heart Hospital in terms of design and clinical requirements for a temporary surge hospital and work to the national modelling requirements." Unquote/

the part in blue would seem to suggest it was intended to be ready for when the old one closed.
so tell me why I'm being a dick and why has this no substance? Is it purely because you don't agree with it?

If it is someone from your family that cannot go to either in the interim period who'll look a dick then?

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Originally Posted by surge

Vaughan Gethin seems to be a terrible communicator. If he's next leader of Welsh Labour then it's in trouble.

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When Drakeford was Health Minister he suddenly stopped doing interviews and Gethin would always do them on the news or current affairs program

I never really watched the assembly and presume Drakeford did it there but I could be wrong.

That is why I was surprised when Drakeford went for the leaders job.

Can you imagine what Labour would say at Westminster if Matt Hancock never faced the media?

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Oh, Snags, you are incapable of hurting my feelings. I was simply calling you out for being a dick because you're desperately looking for an axe to grind when it comes to Welsh Labour (be it the council or members of the Sender).

When I gave you some good news about the new nightingale hospital you gave a sarcastic reply because it wasn't what you wanted to hear. That's incredibly dickish behaviour considering the subject matter.

The Dragon's Heart nightingale hospital is massive. The new one will allow 400 patients (which is in line with estimations of what may be required, apparently) and it's located directly next to the biggest hospital in Wales, which I'm sure you would agree makes logistical sense when it comes to transferring patients.

Winter for me starts 1st December, but reports say it will be completed "before winter" and it's "on track" to meet the expected need for beds.

This sounds like good news to me and it's good news for the Chief Exec of the University Health Board... But, please, tell everyone why you think it's shit and don't forget to use a fake anecdote that will help your argument.

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I have no problem with the new one, it is clearly much better placed, and probably given the time that's been available will be better equipped. I only asked why they closed one before the other was ready?
I have no particular problem with the welsh government but I think, and have stated ,that Drakeford is terrible and looks very bad on TV, which is what people see and judge politicians by these days. I don't like him personally, not his government.

False anecdotes? Remind me?

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

It’s to do with their influence on the market, not necessarily the market share an entity holds.Whilst each case can be different depending on market size etc it’s not unusual to be deemed dominant with a 5% share,
When you look at what the Senedd did unlawfully for commercial reasons was to trim the range of goods available to the general public throughout all supermarkets in Wales, at a time when the opportunities for the welsh public to travel to outlets that had a full range of goods on sale were non existent.

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Obviously mixing up the Senedd, a Competent authority with a commercial undertaking that could have dominant influence on a market seems reasonably plain to most folks, just not to the Commercial expert that has spent most of his life apparently understanding the different public/private responsibilities.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Well I replied to you.
In the article you so obligingly provided it says quote "“The build will be aligned to the de-commissioning programme of the Dragon’s Heart Hospital at the Principality Stadium which we will have vacated by the end of October and will enable the WRU to start making their own plans at the stadium. As a health service we will take on board all of the learning from Dragon’s Heart Hospital in terms of design and clinical requirements for a temporary surge hospital and work to the national modelling requirements. and will enable the WRU to start making their own plans at the stadium. As a health service we will take on board all of the learning from Dragon’s Heart Hospital in terms of design and clinical requirements for a temporary surge hospital and work to the national modelling requirements." Unquote/

the part in blue would seem to suggest it was intended to be ready for when the old one closed.
so tell me why I'm being a dick and why has this no substance? Is it purely because you don't agree with it?

If it is someone from your family that cannot go to either in the interim period who'll look a dick then?

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You were being a dick for the reason I already gave. I'll cover the reason again in this post, but you can go back and read my previous post again you're unsure.

"If it is someone from your family that cannot go to either in the interim period who'll look a dick then?"

You would.

You'd look like a dick for suggesting that I'll look like a dick if a member of my family cannot get the care that they need if they're unwell just because I pointed out facts about the nightingale hospital being built which you didn't like and called you a dick for your sarcastic attitude about the subject.

In fact, I'd say you were more of a c**t for suggesting I'd look like a dick because of the above... but that's just my opinion.

The old nightingale hospital doesn't have any current patients as far as I'm aware and the new one is due to be completed before the expected spike in winter. That sounds like reasonable planning to me... building something to be ready for when it may be required.

Why don't you just hold on to your prejudices against Labour on this issue until it's actually warranted? If the new hospital isn't completed and there aren't enough beds for Covid patients, then you'll be able to gloat until your heart's content and... Until then, why not see how it pans out, eh?

I'm sure there are several other issues you can find to have a go at Drakeford/Cardiff Council over which make more sense than this.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

I have no problem with the new one, it is clearly much better placed, and probably given the time that's been available will be better equipped. I only asked why they closed one before the other was ready?
I have no particular problem with the welsh government but I think, and have stated ,that Drakeford is terrible and looks very bad on TV, which is what people see and judge politicians by these days. I don't like him personally, not his government.

False anecdotes? Remind me?

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False anecdotes... I can think of two recent ones off the top of my head:

The people "high up" who wanted the pubs to stay closed and the numerous bull you've spouted about Castle Street involving conversations you've had with vendors etc.

Going to watch a film now. Speak to you tomorrow.