6PM Curfew - for Men.?

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Source for this? Would be interested to see the methodology.

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https://www.unwomenuk.org/safe-spaces-now

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Originally Posted by Veg1960

https://www.openaccessgovernment.org...the-uk/105940/

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It is a little bit vague as to where the bar is set but this interested me:

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Researchers further reveal that people who were groped, followed and pressured into sexual activity did not find their experience to be “serious enough” to report.

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The other two (groped and pressured into sexual activity) are a bit ambiguous but the fact that women who are being followed don't feel comfortable reporting that to police is shocking.

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Originally Posted by adz-a32

In the context of the debate, the privilege I have is that I am less likely to be sexually assaulted or harassed because I am a man.

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so its a privilege not to be assaulted. got it. I'd say it was a human fundamental right but there we are.

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Originally Posted by adz-a32

There has been a recent statistic that 97% of women aged 18-24 have been sexually harassed or abused. It is safer for me to be out at night. If you cannot see the male privilege we have, you are either naive or a dickhead who think the world revolves around you.

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your ad hominem attacks display a real level of maturity. Just because an individual has a difference of opinion to you does not make them a dickhead.

and its hardly safer for men to be out at night. Men are more likely to be assaulted, the victims of knife and other violent crimes and are more likely to be murdered. That doesn't suit the narrative though.

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Originally Posted by adz-a32

And I cannot speak for women in general but my friends hate being cat called. It is degrading and it is misogynistic. I can’t ****ing believe I am having with debate with someone

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just because your friends dislike being catcalled does not mean all women do. As I have said some women enjoy the attention. you seem to live in this bubble where you think the world is homogenous and everyone lives according to the experiences you and your friends share. I'd suggest you learn to open your horizons and see that the world extends beyond your own experiences. This isn't a perfect world, but its far from as black and white as you are making.

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Originally Posted by adz-a32

https://www.unwomenuk.org/safe-spaces-now

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what does sexual harassment constitute in this context? Because if 97% of women are experiencing attempted rape in a public place, that is a very different situation that needs addressing from 97% of women experiencing being whistled at. The article provides no context to what the experiences are.

edit: my bad, page 13 of the report that is linked provides some context.

Was talking to my mum this morning and the topic came up. She is a normal person and by no means some twisted twitter extremist and her view was that it would be good for young men to be encouraged to cross the street if they are walking at a quicker pace behind a woman, then crossing back over once you have passed her.

Now, this sounds absolutely ridiculous to me, does anybody agree with this advice?

Anecdotal I know but I’d say every woman I know has at the very least been grabbed in a club. And that’s on top of people being weirdos on the tube or other things like that.

And completely ignoring how much more likely a woman is to suffer from domestic abuse.

Maybe it’s just me but I’ve never felt uncomfortable walking home at 4am but every girl I know would at least get a taxi and ever then feel uncomfortable.

Surely people aren’t debating that something should be done to make this better.

I think equating it to men being assaulted is very disingenuous too, no one is saying something should be done about that but it’s definitely a separate issue.

No one is saying “all men” are bad either, coming back with “I’m not like this” and “not all men are like this” is missing the point completely.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Was talking to my mum this morning and the topic came up. She is a normal person and by no means some twisted twitter extremist and her view was that it would be good for young men to be encouraged to cross the street if they are walking at a quicker pace behind a woman, then crossing back over once you have passed her.

Now, this sounds absolutely ridiculous to me, does anybody agree with this advice?

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I think there are much less extreme things you can do to make yourself not seem like a threat.

But I can also understand a women feeling uncomfortable with someone walking closely behind them, that can be avoided just with common sense can’t it.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Was talking to my mum this morning and the topic came up. She is a normal person and by no means some twisted twitter extremist and her view was that it would be good for young men to be encouraged to cross the street if they are walking at a quicker pace behind a woman, then crossing back over once you have passed her.

Now, this sounds absolutely ridiculous to me, does anybody agree with this advice?

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this is something I, and a lot of other men, already do. you end up walking at a comically fast pace to get passed the woman.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Source for this? Would be interested to see the methodology.

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Can't find any source material though

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I think equating it to men being assaulted is very disingenuous too, no one is saying something should be done about that but it’s definitely a separate issue.

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you've missed the point. Some women are whipping up hysteria saying they don't feel safe outside, whereas despite the statistics showing men are more likely to be a victim, men don't feel unsafe at all.

You'd be quite happy walking home from town on your own, whereas a woman would not. This goes against logic when you take on board you're more likely to be the victim of an assault than any woman. Why is that? Its a serious question

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Anecdotal I know but I’d say every woman I know has at the very least been grabbed in a club. And that’s on top of people being weirdos on the tube or other things like that.

And completely ignoring how much more likely a woman is to suffer from domestic abuse.

Maybe it’s just me but I’ve never felt uncomfortable walking home at 4am but every girl I know would at least get a taxi and ever then feel uncomfortable.

Surely people aren’t debating that something should be done to make this better.

I think equating it to men being assaulted is very disingenuous too, no one is saying something should be done about that but it’s definitely a separate issue.

No one is saying “all men” are bad either, coming back with “I’m not like this” and “not all men are like this” is missing the point completely.

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The question is what do you change, and what unintended consequences do you incur from making that change.

This isn't a debate right now because everybody is just jerking each other off for being nice guys but nobody is really saying what they want to happen.

Is that just total assaults that happen though? Or is it Im more likely to be attacked walking home?

I’d say in a fight in a pub men are more likely to be involved in assaults, or at events. And something does need to be done about that.

But is it actually just as likely for me to be assaulted when I’m out walking or when I’m walking home after a night out? Or when I’m sitting on public transport?

I’d say it’s 2 separate issues and conflating them probably doesn’t help either case.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Is that just total assaults that happen though? Or is it Im more likely to be attacked walking home?

I’d say in a fight in a pub men are more likely to be involved in assaults, or at events. And something does need to be done about that.

But is it actually just as likely for me to be assaulted when I’m out walking or when I’m walking home after a night out? Or when I’m sitting on public transport?

I’d say it’s 2 separate issues and conflating them probably doesn’t help either case.

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I have no idea, I've not seen the stats broken down by where the assaults occurred, so its a valid point.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

The question is what do you change, and what unintended consequences do you incur from making that change.

This isn't a debate right now because everybody is just jerking each other off for being nice guys but nobody is really saying what they want to happen.

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I think everyone being more aware of their behaviour and the behaviour of others around them is a start.

It doesn’t remove the issue and there are other things that are needed to be done but just being conscious of how other people might feel is an easy way to start.

I remember being told at school when we were 12 or 13 how old people might be intimidated by us even if we weren’t a threat, I think just being conscious of stuff like that can go a long way to helping.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

this is something I, and a lot of other men, already do. you end up walking at a comically fast pace to get passed the woman.

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It has never crossed my mind that a woman might think I am going to rape her just because I am occupying the same stretch of pavement, how the feck did we end up here? It's really sad.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

I have no idea, I've not seen the stats broken down by where the assaults occurred, so its a valid point.

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It’s just a complete guess on my part but I’ve been had my nose broken twice by drunk duck heads in a bar for no reason so I’d say that is more likely to be the type of assault men are caught up in. I’m not downplaying it, it’s bad but it’s a different ball game to being grabbed by someone on your walk home.

Plus being a big bloke it’s much easier to think you at least stand a chance of getting out of it in a better shape.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I think everyone being more aware of their behaviour and the behaviour of others around them is a start.

It doesn’t remove the issue and there are other things that are needed to be done but just being conscious of how other people might feel is an easy way to start.

I remember being told at school when we were 12 or 13 how old people might be intimidated by us even if we weren’t a threat, I think just being conscious of stuff like that can go a long way to helping.

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I generally don't really see anything I could change, I am pretty quiet (it's always the quiet ones!), keep myself to myself and have on occasions tried to intervene if I have seen anything bad going on. One instance that springs to mind was witnessing a couple in quite a heated physical encounter late at night and then getting screamed at to feck off by the women when I crossed the street to ask if everybody was alright. It is quite hard to get this shit right in reality.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I think everyone being more aware of their behaviour and the behaviour of others around them is a start.

It doesn’t remove the issue and there are other things that are needed to be done but just being conscious of how other people might feel is an easy way to start.

I remember being told at school when we were 12 or 13 how old people might be intimidated by us even if we weren’t a threat, I think just being conscious of stuff like that can go a long way to helping.

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I tell you what doesn't help....the outpouring of criticism of #notallmen or whatever it was. There was a clear trend of men pointing out that they would not behave this way and they wouldn't treat women in this way yet despite this it was immediately turned around as some sort of negative.

certain women continually saying the problem is men, when what they mean is some men. They call for education of men but you are I never needed educating yet we know how to behave.

Consequently the approach adopted by these women means that some men entrench because they want nothing to do with being associated with this copper and others like him. Then this starts a whole different debate of male v female with some then arguing you're part of the problem if you don't accept their opinion. We've seen it in this thread.

I don't know any male who thinks its acceptable for women to be subject to sexual harassment, or to feel threatened just by being out at night. In my opinion it would help the situation immensely if women knew that the vast majority of men aren't a threat, and when some men publicly advertise this fact, it should be welcomed not criticised.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

It’s just a complete guess on my part but I’ve been had my nose broken twice by drunk duck heads in a bar for no reason so I’d say that is more likely to be the type of assault men are caught up in. I’m not downplaying it, it’s bad but it’s a different ball game to being grabbed by someone on your walk home.

Plus being a big bloke it’s much easier to think you at least stand a chance of getting out of it in a better shape.

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therein lies the rub. most men are confident enough to believe they can at least have a chance because they'll be equivalent size, weight and reach as their assailant. Its why we have divisions in boxing. a 5ft 4 women weighing 8 stone hasn't got much chance against a 14 stone 6 footer.

This is why men don't feel scared of venturing outside and don't really give it a second thought.

That’s the whole point isn’t it I think, it isn’t really as much of a worry for us as it is to them.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

That’s the whole point isn’t it I think

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but is it right? we live in the most inclusive prosperous equal society ever in human history, yet here we are saying some women should be free to prejudge men in this way. As Eric Cartman said, its not right that a woman thinks you or I are a potential rapist just because we're male. If we prejudged anyone else in society in this way we'd rightly be called out for the bigotry that this is.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

you've missed the point. Some women are whipping up hysteria saying they don't feel safe outside, whereas despite the statistics showing men are more likely to be a victim, men don't feel unsafe at all.

You'd be quite happy walking home from town on your own, whereas a woman would not. This goes against logic when you take on board you're more likely to be the victim of an assault than any woman. Why is that? Its a serious question

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With these stats in mind why do you sometimes walk comically fast past them?

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Originally Posted by Baloo

With these stats in mind why do you sometimes walk comically fast past them?

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Empathy. Do you want to be considered a threat, because I don't

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Originally Posted by Feedback

Empathy. Do you want to be considered a threat, because I don't

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It’s just seemed you were making a case that women’s fear is unfounded whilst doing something yourself that acknowledges that it exists.

I do exactly the same.

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Originally Posted by Baloo

It’s just seemed you were making a case that women’s fear is unfounded whilst doing something yourself that acknowledges that it exists.

I do exactly the same.

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women's fear is (generally) unfounded, but that doesn't mean I can't be aware of that fear, even if its not rational.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

In my opinion it would help the situation immensely if women knew that the vast majority of men aren't a threat, and when some men publicly advertise this fact, it should be welcomed not criticised.

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Haven't got really anything to add to this debate other than to respond to this point that you've made.

I'm not arguing with what you've said, just giving a differing opinion.

I'd hazard a guess that every person who has committed the types of acts discussed in this thread has at one time or another tried to advertise that they aren't a threat to women. Surely that's part of the act?

They're not going to say "watch out, I'm a potential rapist!" are they?

Men apparently posting on social media that they aren't a threat to women just makes the argument it a bit worse, in my opinion, as I'd also guess that a lot of women have a story about a guy that they know who seemed like he wasn't a threat... but suddenly was.

I don't feel the need to advertise that I'm not a monster that women should be afraid of. I'll just go about my life showing that I'm not.

That's my thoughts anyway.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

women's fear is (generally) unfounded, but that doesn't mean I can't be aware of that fear, even if its not rational.

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OK, most fear is ultimately unfounded. I think we’re agreeing that doesn’t mean it’s not genuinely experienced.

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Haven't got really anything to add to this debate other than to respond to this point that you've made.

I'm not arguing with what you've said, just giving a differing opinion.

I'd hazard a guess that every person who has committed the types of acts discussed in this thread has at one time or another tried to advertise that they aren't a threat to women. Surely that's part of the act?

They're not going to say "watch out, I'm a potential rapist!" are they?

Men apparently posting on social media that they aren't a threat to women just makes the argument it a bit worse, in my opinion, as I'd also guess that a lot of women have a story about a guy that they know who seemed like he wasn't a threat... but suddenly was.

I don't feel the need to advertise that I'm not a monster that women should be afraid of. I'll just go about my life showing that I'm not.

That's my thoughts anyway.

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that's a fair point, but I have to ask, are you happy women believe you're a threat to them? if we don't advertise that we want women to not just feel safe but to be safe, and we are prepared to do little things like crossing a road, then how is this going to be resolved?

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Originally Posted by Feedback

that's a fair point, but I have to ask, are you happy women believe you're a threat to them? if we don't advertise that we want women to not just feel safe but to be safe, and we are prepared to do little things like crossing a road, then how is this going to be resolved?

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I feel the same way about it as I feel about people from ethnic minorities who think that all white people are a threat to them...

I don't believe that they all think this way - although it appears that a lot, albeit a small proportion of the population of those specific groups do.

I don't know how to change the opinions of those who do - maybe there is literally nothing that can be done.

I don’t think women do think most men are a threat I think it’s missing the point to think that and people don’t need to worry about women thinking they’re a threat.

It’s not about individuals it’s about situations and women feeling vulnerable in them. It’s often not the extremes of being attacked or being raped but being in uncomfortable situations which feel like they could lead to it andI’m afraid to say happen a lot more than you’d think to women.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

that's a fair point, but I have to ask, are you happy women believe you're a threat to them? if we don't advertise that we want women to not just feel safe but to be safe, and we are prepared to do little things like crossing a road, then how is this going to be resolved?

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A lot of people just need to check their behaviour. You see it all the time and we’ve probably all done something to make someone feel uncomfortable when we didn’t mean to. It isn’t about doing something specific it’s just understanding how other people feel and why.

I think people are worrying too much about the wrong things here.

Which one is Feedback :biggrin:

Attachment 4359

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

The question is what do you change, and what unintended consequences do you incur from making that change.

This isn't a debate right now because everybody is just jerking each other off for being nice guys but nobody is really saying what they want to happen.

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Earlier on I asked how many sons are spoken to regarding what is good behaviour towards others compared to how many daughters get a talk about what to do to make them safe. As far as I can tell there was one answer which agreed sons don't get that conversation, as well as trying to explain it's because we don't want to see our sons in a negative light. You're now saying it's not needed but several on here had described experience of where men act like d*cks to women.

Marina Hyde wrote an article about her own harassment which happened this week in which she tried to get attention of two men to help her when the harasser was coming towards her and they did nothing: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...arassed-street

She also remarked that she had to triage and judge how seriously to take the aggressor. It's not just about stopping people like this suspect but stopping the need for such regular triage.

Or we can pretend nothing can be done because what's going to happen is always going to happen.

We should also accept as a forum of mainly man it’s probably not the best to be saying the statistics show you’ve not got anything to worry about :hehe:

Sometimes we have to accept as men we probably don’t understand what it’s like. Rather than say “you’re being hysterical” when I bet every women we know would have something anecdotal to back this up.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

so its a privilege not to be assaulted. got it. I'd say it was a human fundamental right but there we are.


your ad hominem attacks display a real level of maturity. Just because an individual has a difference of opinion to you does not make them a dickhead.

and its hardly safer for men to be out at night. Men are more likely to be assaulted, the victims of knife and other violent crimes and are more likely to be murdered. That doesn't suit the narrative though.

just because your friends dislike being catcalled does not mean all women do. As I have said some women enjoy the attention. you seem to live in this bubble where you think the world is homogenous and everyone lives according to the experiences you and your friends share. I'd suggest you learn to open your horizons and see that the world extends beyond your own experiences. This isn't a perfect world, but its far from as black and white as you are making.

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Yep it is a human right to not be assaulted. Well done, you admitted that. Surely a woman shouldn’t be denied that right because she is a woman?

And the “difference of opinion” is ****ing human decency. I do not call out others if they like pineapple on pizza.

And I used the word “safer” for a reason, not “safe”.

And I am talking about other people’s experiences. I am thinking beyond my experience as a man. If I talked about MY OWN experience, I would be talking like you did in the first and tongued paragraphs. Typical of Feedback to be patronising. *rolls eyes* Look in the mirror. Hypocrite.

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Originally Posted by adz-a32

Yep it is a human right to not be assaulted. Well done, you admitted that. Surely a woman shouldn’t be denied that right because she is a woman?

And the “difference of opinion” is ****ing human decency. I do not call out others if they like pineapple on pizza.

And I used the word “safer” for a reason, not “safe”.

And I am talking about other people’s experiences. I am thinking beyond my experience as a man. If I talked about MY OWN experience, I would be talking like you did in the first and tongued paragraphs. Typical of Feedback to be patronising. *rolls eyes* Look in the mirror. Hypocrite.

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*third paragraph, not tongued

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Originally Posted by adz-a32

Yep it is a human right to not be assaulted. Well done, you admitted that. Surely a woman shouldn’t be denied that right because she is a woman?

And the “difference of opinion” is ****ing human decency. I do not call out others if they like pineapple on pizza.

And I used the word “safer” for a reason, not “safe”.

And I am talking about other people’s experiences. I am thinking beyond my experience as a man. If I talked about MY OWN experience, I would be talking like you did in the first and tongued paragraphs. Typical of Feedback to be patronising. *rolls eyes* Look in the mirror. Hypocrite.

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I'm not sure how any of what I have written is patronising. And you're twisting what is being said to form a completely different narrative.

You're coming across as a very angry young man. Have a spliff and chill the **** out.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

We should also accept as a forum of mainly man it’s probably not the best to be saying the statistics show you’ve not got anything to worry about :hehe:

Sometimes we have to accept as men we probably don’t understand what it’s like. Rather than say “you’re being hysterical” when I bet every women we know would have something anecdotal to back this up.

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Hysterical was a poor choice of word. Irrational in its truest sense would have been better.

What us men can do is offer empathy, and intervene if we see anti social behaviour.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

I'm not sure how any of what I have written is patronising. And you're twisting what is being said to form a completely different narrative.

You're coming across as a very angry young man. Have a spliff and chill the **** out.

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Read the last paragraph and tell me that you aren’t patronising. And now you are on about different narratives. Hypocrite.

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Originally Posted by adz-a32

Read the last paragraph and tell me that you aren’t patronising. And now you are on about different narratives. Hypocrite.

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You are an angry young man. Learn to deal with it adz