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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ninja
I am starting to think that we should not be held to ransom over this transfer fee.
While I understand that agreements in principle were made etc, why should Nantes benefit to the tune of £15mil for a player that cost them €1mil.
This tragedy was not the fault of CCFC, any more so than Nantes ultimately.
I feel CAS will make us pay them something, but hopefully nowhere near the amount agreed in the transfer fee.
After all, the player cost them €1mil ffs, whilst his life of course should be considered invaluable, the greed approach is not the correct one given that everybody involved has suffered.
Henderson should be made to pay a lot of compensation although he would no doubt plead poverty. He could well be out of prison soon too. If he does half on good behaviour, if that's allowed, then later this month quite possibly!
What they paid and sold him for won't come into it, we agreed to pay it.
It's down to who owned him, and according to most who have reviewed the case it was still Nantes due to a technicality with the paperwork.
It’s harsh but that’s what happens if we are proved to be the legal owner we pay, if not we pay nothing.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ninja
I am starting to think that we should not be held to ransom over this transfer fee. While I understand that agreements in principle were made etc, why should Nantes benefit to the tune of £15mil for a player that cost them €1mil. This tragedy was not the fault of CCFC, any more so than Nantes ultimately.
I feel CAS will make us pay them something, but hopefully nowhere near the amount agreed in the transfer fee.
After all, the player cost them €1mil ffs, whilst his life of course should be considered invaluable, the greed approach is not the correct one given that everybody involved has suffered.
Out of interest, what username did you post under before re-registering last month as Ninja? I ask because, with all due respect, the above post would suggest you have absolutely no idea how professional football transfers work.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Lone Gunman
Out of interest, what username did you post under before re-registering last month as Ninja? I ask because, with all due respect, the above post would suggest you have absolutely no idea how professional football transfers work.
This is not a suggestion related to how transfers work. What I am suggesting is that if we are deemed liable for a fee, it should not be anywhere near the £15mil Nantes are after.
If you take the player himself out of the equation and look at it purely from a monetary sense, CCFC gained nothing whatsoever.
Nantes lost a player that cost them €1mil, and would have scored more goals for them in the years that followed, but was way over-valued at £15mil to begin with, and wasn't exactly going to fire Nantes to Champs League success etc.
I would suggest that if we are made to pay compensation to Nantes, it should be closer to £5mil than the £15mil agreed given we never even got to have the lad step onto a pitch for us. I'm trying to look at it in more of a subjective manner as opposed to assuming we should owe them £15mil.
I've posted here occasionally in the past, but until recently, not for many many years. I'm normally a viewer far more than a poster. However, the shenanigans of pre-season and a bit more free time drew me in for a bit :hehe: :thumbup:
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ninja
This is not a suggestion related to how transfers work. What I am suggesting is that if we are deemed liable for a fee, it should not be anywhere near the £15mil Nantes are after.
If you take the player himself out of the equation and look at it purely from a monetary sense, CCFC gained nothing whatsoever.
Nantes lost a player that cost them €1mil, and would have scored more goals for them in the years that followed, but was way over-valued at £15mil to begin with, and wasn't exactly going to fire Nantes to Champs League success etc.
I would suggest that if we are made to pay compensation to Nantes, it should be closer to £5mil than the £15mil agreed given we never even got to have the lad step onto a pitch for us. I'm trying to look at it in more of a subjective manner as opposed to assuming we should owe them £15mil.
I've posted here occasionally in the past, but until recently, not for many many years. I'm normally a viewer far more than a poster. However, the shenanigans of pre-season and a bit more free time drew me in for a bit :hehe: :thumbup:
either he dies when he was a Cardiff player, in which case we owe the full fee, or he was a Nantes player, in which case we wouldn't pay anything is my limited understanding of it.
I'm not sure why we would pay a lower figure to Nantes
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
either he dies when he was a Cardiff player, in which case we owe the full fee, or he was a Nantes player, in which case we wouldn't pay anything is my limited understanding of it.
I'm not sure why we would pay a lower figure to Nantes
It's not that black and white though is it, considering the very unfortunate circumstances involved, which is obviously why CAS are involved to begin with.
It is not beyond the realms of possibility that a compensation package somewhere in between could be suggested if Cardiff are considered liable.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ninja
It's not that black and white though is it, considering the very unfortunate circumstances involved, which is obviously why CAS are involved to begin with.
It is not beyond the realms of possibility that a compensation package somewhere in between could be suggested if Cardiff are considered liable.
I really don't see how that is possible.
unless it isn't possible to determine if the transfer was complete or not.
is this something you've read somewhere or just a scenario you've invented yourself?
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ninja
It's not that black and white though is it, considering the very unfortunate circumstances involved, which is obviously why CAS are involved to begin with.
It is not beyond the realms of possibility that a compensation package somewhere in between could be suggested if Cardiff are considered liable.
I think both clubs should look at this post …. It’s probably the best outcome for both Cardiff and Nantes. Sadly as third parties are involved it’s just not going to happen.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
I really don't see how that is possible.
unless it isn't possible to determine if the transfer was complete or not.
is this something you've read somewhere or just a scenario you've invented yourself?
It's common sense mate. If Cardiff are deemed liable they will fight for a lesser payment for sure given the circumstances.
We'll see what the outcome is in due course.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ninja
This is not a suggestion related to how transfers work. What I am suggesting is that if we are deemed liable for a fee, it should not be anywhere near the £15mil Nantes are after.
If you take the player himself out of the equation and look at it purely from a monetary sense, CCFC gained nothing whatsoever. Nantes lost a player that cost them €1mil, and would have scored more goals for them in the years that followed, but was way over-valued at £15mil to begin with, and wasn't exactly going to fire Nantes to Champs League success etc.
As I said before, you don't seem to grasp how football transfers work.
Do you reckon Cardiff should ask Norwich if they can give back the £11 million Warnock paid for Josh Murphy? After all, he cost Norwich nothing, was clearly over-valued at £11 million and CCFC subsequently gained nothing from the transfer.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Lone Gunman
As I said before, you don't seem to grasp how football transfers work.
Do you reckon Cardiff should ask Norwich if they can give back the £11 million Warnock paid for Josh Murphy? After all, he cost Norwich nothing, was clearly over-valued at £11 million and CCFC subsequently gained nothing from the transfer.
I've just made my points above, very different set of circumstances indeed!
Cardiff got the player!
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ninja
I've just made my points above, very different set of circumstances indeed! Cardiff got the player!
Nantes will argue Cardiff got the player in the Sala case. Indeed, Cardiff announced to the world they’d got the player on their own website.
Anyway, this is a daft line of discussion, so I’ll leave it there.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ninja
It's not that black and white though is it, considering the very unfortunate circumstances involved, which is obviously why CAS are involved to begin with.
It is not beyond the realms of possibility that a compensation package somewhere in between could be suggested if Cardiff are considered liable.
Why?
Nantes agreed to sell, and in their mind have sold, an asset worth £15m. They no longer have that asset and haven't received £15m either.
Cardiff are claiming that the asset never belonged to them, so in their minds shouldn't pay anything.
Can't see how there is any middle ground.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ninja
I've just made my points above, very different set of circumstances indeed!
Cardiff got the player!
We didn't as the paperwork wasn't completed correctly, tough on Nantes but they shouldn't have used an agent that thinks flying over rough Sea, at night in a storm in the middle of Winter, with a pilot not qualified to fly commercial passengers, who hasn’t flown at night before in a tiny falling apart plane is just like booking a taxi!
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Lone Gunman
Nantes will argue Cardiff got the player in the Sala case. Indeed, Cardiff announced to the world they’d got the player on their own website.
Anyway, this is a daft line of discussion, so I’ll leave it there.
It's not daft but there's little point in disputing it as neither of us know all the facts.
To suggest it should be that black and white as some have suggested just seems foolish to me.
Life is not always that black and white, that's why organisations such as CAS exist, to resolve disputes, and especially unusual ones such as this.
This is a highly unusual set of circumstances given that Sala never got a foot on the pitch for us and losing a player mid-transfer like this is almost unheard of.
Nantes will rightfully be pissed if they get nothing as they lost a player.
Cardiff will rightfully be pissed if they have to pay £15mil for a player that never got to even train with them, let alone start a match.
We'll have to wait and see what the outcome is.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ninja
I've just made my points above, very different set of circumstances indeed!
Cardiff got the player!
I see what you are trying to say, it's not fair on either losing side, but thats life, either we owned him or they did :thumbup:
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
The arguments and refusal to pay/accept responsibility is not the fault of Dalman or Tan personally, it is the insurance companies.
If they think there is good reason not to pay they won't pay until they have dragged every single possible argument through the courts.
even if the CAS finds against City there is still the possibility that the insurance company will refuse to pay because of a different interpretation of this or that or whatever.
If City had accepted liability before the CAS the insurance company may have said they were in breach of their contract with them and still not pay.
Whatever city are doing will be on the advice of their lawyers and the insurance company's lawyers. you don't pay for that kind of advice and then ignore it.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
xsnaggle
The arguments and refusal to pay/accept responsibility is not the fault of Dalman or Tan personally, it is the insurance companies.
If they think there is good reason not to pay they won't pay until they have dragged every single possible argument through the courts.
even if the CAS finds against City there is still the possibility that the insurance company will refuse to pay because of a different interpretation of this or that or whatever.
If City had accepted liability before the CAS the insurance company may have said they were in breach of their contract with them and still not pay.
Whatever city are doing will be on the advice of their lawyers and the insurance company's lawyers. you don't pay for that kind of advice and then ignore it.
That’s dependent on any insurance being in place and covering this scenario. Is that even confirmed by the club?
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
xsnaggle
The arguments and refusal to pay/accept responsibility is not the fault of Dalman or Tan personally, it is the insurance companies.
If they think there is good reason not to pay they won't pay until they have dragged every single possible argument through the courts.
even if the CAS finds against City there is still the possibility that the insurance company will refuse to pay because of a different interpretation of this or that or whatever.
If City had accepted liability before the CAS the insurance company may have said they were in breach of their contract with them and still not pay.
Whatever city are doing will be on the advice of their lawyers and the insurance company's lawyers. you don't pay for that kind of advice and then ignore it.
Even then, clubs or clubs insurance companies will sue the insurers of the Agents and the Plane owners insurers, it will be still going on in decades time.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
North Cardiff Blue
Even then, clubs or clubs insurance companies will sue the insurers of the Agents and the Plane owners insurers, it will be still going on in decades time.
It would be very interesting to know whether the insurance had gone through.
For high profile clients insurance takes time and is usually subject to medical results. He had his medical results 18th Jan and they probably would have been rushed through to the insurer. However, I'm not sure whether they'd have required a signature from him etc and whether they'd have gotten one in order to validate any insurance before that flight.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
The process for adding a player to a club's group life insurance would just be to tell the broker to add him and at what value, then for the broker to tell the insurer to do the same. No medical info or signatures would usually be needed.
However, I think there's a fair chance one or both of those things didn't happen, the "signing" happening on a Saturday afternoon. There may be a clause giving temporary cover for new signings before they're officially added, but if there is it would have a much lower limit of cover than Sala's value.
I believe Cardiff sacked their broker not long after the accident. Read into that what you want.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Undercoverinwurzelland
The process for adding a player to a club's group life insurance would just be to tell the broker to add him and at what value, then for the broker to tell the insurer to do the same. No medical info or signatures would usually be needed.
However, I think there's a fair chance one or both of those things didn't happen, the "signing" happening on a Saturday afternoon. There may be a clause giving temporary cover for new signings before they're officially added, but if there is it would have a much lower limit of cover than Sala's value.
I believe Cardiff sacked their broker not long after the accident. Read into that what you want.
I am guessing here but Cardiff must think they have a fairly good chance of winning the CAS hearing , otherwise wouldn’t they have just come to some amicable arrangement with FC Nantes ?
They must have spent about %15 of the transfer fee in legal fees so far .
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Forgive me if i am way off the mark here. But was the transfer fee not agreed at an initial 5 million payment and then additional payments after x amount of games played, bringing the total transfer fee up to 15million cap? As much as this is a serious tragic event and it pains to see all the haggling and arguments, but as the player is deceased, the latter part of the contract (games played) cannot be realised/completed.
Spedger
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sloop_Jon_Bee
Forgive me if i am way off the mark here. But was the transfer fee not agreed at an initial 5 million payment and then additional payments after x amount of games played, bringing the total transfer fee up to 15million cap? As much as this is a serious tragic event and it pains to see all the haggling and arguments, but as the player is deceased, the latter part of the contract (games played) cannot be realised/completed.
Spedger
The agreed fee was £15m payable, just like many transfers, in installments. I'm pretty certain that none of it was tied to appearances. The £5m we were told to pay was just the first installment.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sloop_Jon_Bee
Forgive me if i am way off the mark here. But was the transfer fee not agreed at an initial 5 million payment and then additional payments after x amount of games played, bringing the total transfer fee up to 15million cap? As much as this is a serious tragic event and it pains to see all the haggling and arguments, but as the player is deceased, the latter part of the contract (games played) cannot be realised/completed.
Spedger
I understood it to be £15m (although a Euros figure) to be paid in three annual instalments - not £5m with another £10m based on 'add on' factors like appearances.
As others have said Emiliano Sala's registration had either been transferred to Cardiff or was still held by Nantes at the time of his death. That will be a matter of legal fact determined by CAS or a civil court. The insurers will be driving the legal process. If it is determined that Sala was a Cardiff player there will probably be series of new cases to follow - to claim compensation from those (or their insurers) who arranged the flight.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I understood it to be £15m (although a Euros figure) to be paid in three annual instalments - not £5m with another £10m based on 'add on' factors like appearances.
As others have said Emiliano Sala's registration had either been transferred to Cardiff or was still held by Nantes at the time of his death. That will be a matter of legal fact determined by CAS or a civil court. The insurers will be driving the legal process. If it is determined that Sala was a Cardiff player there will probably be series of new cases to follow - to claim compensation from those (or their insurers) who arranged the flight.
Genuine question….. would the full fee still be payable if we went into admin ? I’m sure Derby had to pay out all remaining transfers fees in full regardless of administration
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TWGL1
Genuine question….. would the full fee still be payable if we went into admin ? I’m sure Derby had to pay out all remaining transfers fees in full regardless of administration
Administration isn't bankruptcy so they would still have to pay, but they may have been able to renegotiate payment terms with creditors.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TWGL1
Genuine question….. would the full fee still be payable if we went into admin ? I’m sure Derby had to pay out all remaining transfers fees in full regardless of administration
Administration is an option that no right thinking fan would wish on the club and I do not believe Vincent Tan would wish it either and would do everything to avoid it.
Remember as well that the club has already made provision in the accounts for over £21m should the Sala case be lost so it would impact on cash but not on profits and would be unlikely to cause a Profitability and Sustainability problem with EFL.
In answer to your question though, yes transfer fees would have to be paid in full as football rules require all football debts to be treated with "super priority" ahead of all other creditors and a club can`t come out of Administration with complying with that.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TWGL1
I am guessing here but Cardiff must think they have a fairly good chance of winning the CAS hearing , otherwise wouldn’t they have just come to some amicable arrangement with FC Nantes ?
They must have spent about %15 of the transfer fee in legal fees so far .
I think they must do.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Just noticed that part 3 is now available on iPlayer
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I understood it to be £15m (although a Euros figure) to be paid in three annual instalments - not £5m with another £10m based on 'add on' factors like appearances.
As others have said Emiliano Sala's registration had either been transferred to Cardiff or was still held by Nantes at the time of his death. That will be a matter of legal fact determined by CAS or a civil court. The insurers will be driving the legal process. If it is determined that Sala was a Cardiff player there will probably be series of new cases to follow - to claim compensation from those (or their insurers) who arranged the flight.
IIRC fee was £15m/€17m
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Has anyone mentioned the taxi scenario yet?
Only looked at the first page with some wild opinions on how transfers work
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Just listened to the latest podcast , Sala was on €48,000 per month at FC Nantes , Cardiff we’re going to pay him £50,000 per week.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TWGL1
Just listened to the latest podcast , Sala was on €48,000 per month at FC Nantes , Cardiff we’re going to pay him £50,000 per week.
Have listened to first 3. Nothing new really, but bit eerie to hear voice notes from Sala.
He definitely wasn’t all that keen on coming really, seemed to love his life in France.
Not sure where they’re going to go with the remaining episodes, feels pretty covered.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
It's just a really hard listen.
It's crazy to think that Henderson could be out of prison this month while many are obviously still mourning this boy.
The lad should never have been on that plane, although I appreciate that's stating the fvcking obvious.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
3 episodes in. Not bad but significantly more posts on this thread about the build up than since it actually started. So either people arent listening or they are but don't think much worth debating.
So far i think its decent so not going to knock it as its not awful but just a summary of what we already know really?
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Father Dougal
3 episodes in. Not bad but significantly more posts on this thread about the build up than since it actually started. So either people arent listening or they are but don't think much worth debating.
So far i think its decent so not going to knock it as its not awful but just a summary of what we already know really?
Give it time. There are 9 episodes. I’m sure there will be plenty to talk about in due course.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EastbourneBlue
Have listened to first 3. Nothing new really, but bit eerie to hear voice notes from Sala.
He definitely wasn’t all that keen on coming really, seemed to love his life in France.
Not sure where they’re going to go with the remaining episodes, feels pretty covered.
I can't understand how Ibbotson took the risk in the first place, at the airport he must have seen the weather, he knew on the way to France the plane was making a warning noise and that there was a large bang, and that he was rusty on how to land that type of plane?
Why did he risk his life he was a 59 year old man, by that age you have life experience, you just ring Henderson and say I’m not getting in that thing, send someone to have it checked over, i'm get an easy jet flight home.
Then I also can't understand why Emiliano got on the plane, why didn't he just ring Warnock or his team and say they've sent a death trap, I’ll be home a day late I have to take the flight from Paris?
They were both reckless it was so unnecessary, it doesn't make sense at all, I’ve heard Ibbotson was skint, but you shouldn't risk your life for a few quid?
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Lone Gunman
Give it time. There are 9 episodes. I’m sure there will be plenty to talk about in due course.
I am. Im enjoying it.
Was just making an observation there was far more talk about it before it started than since it actually did start. Maybe that's the intention though.
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
North Cardiff Blue
I can't understand how Ibbotson took the risk in the first place, at the airport he must have seen the weather, he knew on the way to France the plane was making a warning noise and that there was a large bang, and that he was rusty on how to land that type of plane?
Why did he risk his life he was a 59 year old man, by that age you have life experience, you just ring Henderson and say I’m not getting in that thing, send someone to have it checked over, i'm get an easy jet flight home.
Then I also can't understand why Emiliano got on the plane, why didn't he just ring Warnock or his team and say they've sent a death trap, I’ll be home a day late I have to take the flight from Paris?
They were both reckless it was so unnecessary, it doesn't make sense at all, I’ve heard Ibbotson was skint, but you shouldn't risk your life for a few quid?
Not sure calling sala reckless is the way to go here.......
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Re: Transfer- the emiliano sala story- new 9 part podcast on bbc sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Father Dougal
Not sure calling sala reckless is the way to go here.......
No maybe not the right words, but if you've listened to it, you will know he made a serious error of judgment, he was very scared and didn't think it was safe yet still got on the plane, I can't understand how either of them took such a massive risk?