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More buildings in Ukraine being destroyed today.
Russia blew up its own pipelines then its Crimean bridge.
In response Zelensky's shelling his capital and Ukraine's energy infrastructure. I'm struggling to understand why he hasn't demolished his own presidential palace.
Putin starts a war in Ukraine and then complains when Ukrainians (probably) blow up a bridge which is one of Russia's main supply routes for armaments to use in his war. How terribly unsporting of them. Obviously all fascists who must be eliminated.
I think that NATO gets involved officially if things continue.
"Ukraine has the momentum" in the war with russia and the Western defense alliance would stand with Kyiv as long as it takes, said NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg.
"russia's victory in the conflict in Ukraine will be a defeat for NATO, and this cannot be allowed."
looks like Russia is blaming our royal navy for blowing up the pipelines !
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">BREAKING: The UK Ministry of Defence say Russia is "resorting to peddling false claims on an epic scale" after Moscow accused a Royal Navy unit of blowing up Nord Stream gas pipelines.<br><br>Latest: <a href="https://t.co/X3flQUBL0r">https://t.co/X3flQUBL0r</a><br><br>�� Sky 501, Virgin 602, Freeview 233 and YouTube <a href="https://t.co/XeHNkyd5Zy">pic.twitter.com/XeHNkyd5Zy</a></p>— Sky News (@SkyNews) <a href="https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1586343448860303362?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
I wonder if Putin will finally blow Zelensky's Kiev palace to bits? Surely he can sacrifice one of his famed hypersonic missiles to perform the task.
This eight-month long conflict has been great news for many people, among them oil-producing countries whose product has increased in value and arms manufacturers who will make a bundle replacing all that's been sent to and been destroyed in Ukraine. Shareholders in the oil and energy sectors along with the military industrial complex have been constantly rubbing their hands with glee since late February.
Which provides me with another opportunity to link to a very short book penned around 90 years ago titled War is a Racket in which the author, a highly decorated former US general called Smedley Butler, realised wars and conflicts were never waged for the stated purposes but to further enrich already mega wealthy people. This Ukraine-Russia ding-dong reeks of the same playbook.
War is a Racket by Major General Smedley Butler - https://archive.org/details/WarIsARacket
Russian missiles crossed into Poland, killing 2 people — AP
don't like the sound of this
trigger NATO article 5 ?
Now seems to be agreement that they were Ukrainian air-defence missiles that hit Poland by accident.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOZZER2
Poland not blaming Russia.
NATO blaming Russia on grounds that if Russia hadn't invaded Ukraine wouldn't have shot at their allies and neighbours!
Hard to deny that fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
No idea if this is the latest thread on the Ukraine war..probably isn't, but I'm not sure that matters.
This statement seems to be both significant and has been coming.
On the one hand probably makes peace and more stability in Europe more likely. On the other, it basically says Putin can take a bite out of another country and get away with it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy0pz3er37jo
Has Boris commented yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
probably still hiding in a fridge !Quote:
Originally Posted by Wales-Bales
Didn't he talk Z out of signing a peace deal before the war started?Quote:
Originally Posted by MOZZER2
In summary ...Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Returning to pre 2014 borders is an unrealistic objective
Durable peace must include robust sucurity guarentees
But ...
US does not believe NATO membership for Ukraine is a relalistic outcome
Security guarentee must be backed by European & non-European troops
Peacekeepers must be part of a non-NATO mission and not covered under Article 5
No US troops for international oversight to be deployed in Ukraine
Nato's European members would need to provide the lion's share of future aid for Kyiv
Safeguarding European security must be an imperative for European members of Nato
Europe must provide the overwhelming share of future lethal and non-lethal aid to Ukraine
so basically he's rolled over and given Putin everything he wantsQuote:
Originally Posted by Wales-Bales
I think it's more than that. First the Biden regime destroyed the oil pipeline, and now Trump has given Europe the middle finger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
Was always going to be the case as we can’t just keep syphoning dead tax payers money towards what we know is a pointless cause. I thought the BBC reported that Russians were fighting with spades 😆Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
Trump probably knows the real story hence the pushback.
The astute among us will also have noticed that Europe is imploding from within.Quote:
Originally Posted by TWGL1
Yeh remember when the EU president mistakenly disclosed the huge number of Ukrainian losses in a war they were reported as winning. I bet that went down well with the propaganda machine. Three years later …. Sickening really at the total waste of lives on both sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wales-Bales
I could say more but I will keep it for another day.Quote:
Originally Posted by TWGL1
He's happy to spend god knows how much American taxpayer money on Israel 2.0 but nothing on preventing one of their adversaries gaining land and momentum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
But Disneyland Gaza is totally worth the money.Quote:
Originally Posted by TWGL1
It’s nothing to do with money, that’s my point especially if you know how the financial system works. That’s why the winter fuel monstrosity is nothing to do with money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
Does anyone think rolling over and giving Putin exactly what he's asking for is going to make Europe a safer place in the long run?
I think the short and easy answer to that is No.
However, there are several factors at play.
Firstly (and we don't know how it will end anyway) I don't think he is getting everything he wanted. He wanted all of Ukraine or a puppet govt there. There's no reason to think he will get that. That said, he will get most of what he wanted and by violent means. Clearly not a good thing.
Secondly, he is currently at war. Long term things matter, but are also unknown. Short term reality also counts and 200,000 are dead. Europe's two largest countries are at war that will effectively never end as nuclear powers don't really lose wars. The west is unprepared to do what it takes for Ukraine to decisively win and we are also unprepared for that scenario and what a wounded Russia would do next.
Finally, this is how wars do end. Territorial disputes never really end with the pre-war borders in place, unfortunately. I don't mean that in a blaze manner, I just mean thats the real politik. How else will it end? And if it doesn't how much is Europe prepared to put up with? The war is having a very serious impact on domestic policies, particularly in Germany via the cost of energy as they are reliant on Russia for it.
Personally I'm open minded on it. But Ukraine has to be on board. Maybe not Zelensky, but the body of the people do. If Ukrainians arent then as soon as the war ends, it starts again as nationalists will understandably want to regain the land lost.
It's a mess, although I think it's less of a mess than at any point in the last two years
there was some interesting speculation on the radio the other day, saying that Trump is steaming in gung-ho because he desperately wants a Nobel peace prize - because Obama got one
Im sure he does and if he ends the war he probably deserves one. I can't remember exactly what Obama got his for, but I recollect it was on fairly shaky ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
on the other hand if he facilitates ethnic cleansing in Gaza then he probably shouldn't get oneQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
This is what the late Richard Feynman thoughts regarding honours were when he was awarded a Nobel Prize:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zITgl5z9pR0
Indeed, although that's another topic of course and we await to see what happens there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
Personally though, I am cautiously optimistic. But then I'm not Ukrainian.
But yeah, in my mind either it goes on forever or it ends something like what is being talked about unfortunately
Trump would deserve one?Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
I suppose given the mixed bag of people and organisations that have been given the award, boosting Trump's ego in that way would not be so strange.
If Teddy Rooseveldt, Menachim Begin and Henry Kissinger can all get one - it shows what a cheap 'prize' it can be.
'Murderers and mass murderers for peace'?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rize_laureates
If Trump does get a peace deal with Putin (we know the adult in that negotiation), it seems it will be without the Ukrainians having any meaningful input or role. A deal will be done to them.
Their alternative is to continue to beg Trump for more arms (I see Netanyahu doesn't have to beg) and in return the US will walk away with half a trillion dollars worth or rare earth metals.
'The Art of the Deal' :angry:
Obama got it for: "his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples."
Eh?
Yeah I'll think we are on the same page about the value of that prize! If he did help achieve peace though that is probably more worthy than Obamas one.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
But yes, it does all come down to the terms of it all.
I'm just not sure what a viable alternative is? I guess just keeping on as is, but I don't think that's sustainable.
Ukraine has to be involved. I suppose I can ultimately see an election there based around peace+loss of some land or war (and still loss of the land).
Interesting reading the statement on Obamas Nobel peace prize actually.
I think he was a good president and one that America needed. I also think he was good on the global stage but the reasons for a peace prize are a bit shaky
https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/pe...press-release/
Do you think the Zelensky is in charge then :hehe: He does what he’s told and when :thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
The biggest concern after Putin probably being able to dig in and retain all or the major part of Ukraine currently occupied is what happen next: the US will be reluctant to commit troops to maintain the line, European countries are heavily divided in their perspectives of the situation and it's very unlikely that rump Ukraine will be allowed become a member of NATO and any peace agreement could be violated by Putin at any time in the future, especially when he detects weakness in his enemies and when his armed forces are replenished.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Too right, it's stop fighting you two, you keep your side and you keep yours and let that be the end of it, and no chance you can join Nato. This outcome was so obvious as soon as Trump was mentioned as standing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
Warmongers are apoplectic that OMB is doing everything he can to end this war.
I doubt you would be so happy about the outcome if a chunk of your country was being handed over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathblue
I'd gladly forfeit Monmouthshire if it meant a bit of peace and quiet....Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman