what does that say about the quality of the opposition in Wales?Quote:
Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue
the Tories are a total waste of time in Wales
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what does that say about the quality of the opposition in Wales?Quote:
Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue
the Tories are a total waste of time in Wales
Definitely they are a mess too!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
Are you in favour of a blanket 20mph approach, even on arterial roads not in built up areas where there aren't any history of accidents, or would you be happy to see these roads revert back to 30mph, safe in the knowledge this would be very unlikely to make any real difference to accident stats?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
He obviously doesn't drive around much, and is a bit anti-car, "not in my street" and was happy for the cameras booking people for driving through Crystal Glen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
Yes is the answer.
I've decided to spend half an hour of a lovely Saturday evening looking at some of the stats according to StatsWales. Just looking at accidents at 20 or 30mph that have resulted in either serious injuries or fatalities according to quarters of the year since 2021.
Jan-Mar has always been the quarter with the fewest of those types of accidents, followed by Apr-Jun. In 2021 and 2023 Jul-Sep resulted in the greatest number of those accidents; in 2022 the quarter with the most was Oct-Dec.
Overall, the number of accidents at 20 or 30mph resulting in fatalities or serious injury rose year on year from 2021 to 2023 but there is a slight difference between the rise in the number of casualties and the number of accidents and a few discrepancies. In 2021 we all know there were less journeys made as lockdown was ending and people were still often working from home.
Jan-Mar:
2021-2022: 16.5% rise in the number of casualties
2022-2023: 2% rise
Apr-Jun:
2021-2022: 1.8% rise
2022-2023: 7.9% rise
Jul-Sep:
2021-2022: 6.2% fall
2022-2023: 24% rise
Oct-Dec:
2021-2022: 1.6% rise
2022-2023: 12.4% fall
Those are the overall casualty stats for serious injuries and fatalities. It should be noted that the number of accidents with serious injuries fell between Jan-Mar 2022-2023 (1.1%), Apr-Jun 2021-2022 (6.1%), Jul-Sep 2021-2022 (9.6%) and Oct-Dec 2022-2023 (10.9%).
In 2022 there were fewer accidents resulting in serious injuries than in 2021, but 3 more people were seriously injured and 7 more were killed. In 2023 there were 24 more casualties than in 2022 but only 14 more accidents. Year on year there has been a very marginal increase in the number of people being injured or killed in accidents. In 2021 there were 19 accidents resulting in 23 fatalities, whereas in 2023 there were 22 accidents resulting in 33 fatalities.
Overall, I think just using a comparison between Oct-Dec in 2022 and 2023 is a bit misleading at the moment. Others have said that we need a year and more of stats before drawing to any conclusions. Fatality figures are so low that they can be skewed. With overall figures for each quarter in the early 100s, a handful more or less of accidents makes a big difference to the figures, but in reality, means only perhaps a drop of one accident a week, which may or may not be down to a change in speed limits where we won't know what speed was being driven at time of impact.
One thing I've noticed, ROSPA have said a reduction to 20mph has been successful in reducing accidents by over 40% and child and young person fatalites by over half. None of that has come close to happening and certainly won't.
Has anyone changed their minds on this subject, now it’s been in for nine months?
The Welsh Government!Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
https://www.driving.org/welsh-govern...h/#:~:text=The Welsh Government plans to,roads starting in September 2024.
There are definitely areas where I'm driving that 30mph should be put back in place. I'm on the road everyday. Virtually all the changes in the RCT area I don't really have a problem with. Saying that I'm mostly doing 25 so maybe I'm wrong.
That's not the case in areas in Cardiff or Swansea where there's plenty of roads which no way should be 20.
The crazy thing is the dumb feckers have been vandalising 20mph in housing estates where 20mph is fast enough.
Not in the slightest. However, like virtually every subject that divides opinion on the internet, some people only see things in black or white, one thing or the other, no middle ground or grey area.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Some people think that, by opposing a blanket approach to changing virtually all 30mph limits to 20, that I oppose 20mph limits. That's simply not true and, I might be guessing here, but I don't know anyone who has objections to 20mph speed limits around schools, playgrounds, housing estates etc.
For me the issue has always been about arterial roads. In some parts of the country it's possible to be on quicker roads relatively soon after leaving home. In other areas, such as the valleys, the only options for travel are these roads, sometimes several miles at a time. For all the talk of just adding a minute to everyone's journeys, that's clearly a nonsense for some people, who could spend a couple more days a year behind the wheel of a car because of the slower speed limits (10 extra minutes a day over 300 days a year is over 48 hours).
I will continue to object to 20mph limits on roads where there is clearly no reason for this, such as in areas where there are few or no houses. 40 mph limits still exist in many areas like this and were never changed, yet similar roads in 30mph areas have been changed. For everyone who shouts about road safety and being happy if it saves just one person, none of them ever give a reason why the sorts of roads I've mentioned shouldn't revert back to 30mph.
As with some believing opposing the 20mph limits means complete opposition to all 20mph limits, I also think those also believe that those against a blanket approach are happy to mow down pedestrians and have little regard for those seriously injured. That is not true as well. Condescending remarks like "I hope it's not your kid run over" do nothing to help and demonstrates little knowledge or thinking about the situation. Most of us know of roads where 20mph limits are totally proposterous. If the data comparing the last quarter of 2022 with 2023 is as a result of speed limit changes, it's done no more than save one bad accident in Wales per week, yet lots of us are trundling around quite safely and, as I've said before, well over 99.999% of journeys at 30mph are completed totally safely. There's probably more chance of winning a decent prize on lotto than being involved in a bad accident at 30mph or slower. Roads will never be a totally safe place for others, but education on road safety is very important. Like I've said, lots of accidents are caused by either a driver or someone else being at fault.
Lastly, one of the biggest frustrations at the new speed limits are the utter arseholes who drive at 15, 16, 17 mph, or continue at a mere 20mph when the speed limit changes. There's a 50mph road near me and I've seen drivers doing barely more than 20 on it. I enjoy driving and I very rarely don't know what a speed limit is. How people don't notice signposts etc is beyond me.
No .
Id like to know how many ederly have suffered ir fallen ill due to carers being caught in slow traffic and missing thier care slot . .
ill take a guess at "not many"Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
If you say so , if you slow roads ,you slow appointments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dembe
Theres no proof it reduces accidents or pollution all it does it is slow down critically needed tasks .
Think the petition and WAG row back supports the fact it was a dreadful waste of money .
Perhaps more ambulances and crews would have been a better option to spend thier money on ,not some form of law change that could never be enforced and cost millions of tax payers money
God Wales is like a fecking retirement home .
Pathetic.
Ambulance waiting times are 10 hours because the paramedics that take people in have to stay with them until they are signed into the hospital. Until the hospital find room for them, or sign them over, they are the responsibility of the paramedic staff that take them in.Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
If you buy more ambulances and fund more paramedics you'll just have more ambulances sat outside A+E
Not sure what 30-20mph has to do with this.
As you were curious on the numbers, I had a guess, I don't think that many people died as a result of road speed changes, it's an utter guess as I have absolutely no idea.
More to do with the waiting lists than any other issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
So, lets get it down to 10mph .Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
By your logic that has to be safer and better than 20mph?
I can see both sides of the argument but for the life of me can't see why anyone is getting particularly angry.
Was in Odisha, India, recently and built up areas in Bhubaneswar are 20KPM.
I am a driver, some of the road I drive on regularly have been 20 for a long time. Some of Pen-Y-Lan road now being 20 is the least of my worries as the local authority has decided to to completely mess up the turn onto Colchester Avenue - the right hand turn is so disconcerting for oncoming traffic it causes a lot of anxiety for drivers who don't often drive there.
Surely we will end with with a few roads reverting to 30 but built up areas where there are schools etc, remaining at 20, which I think is sensible.
But in these polarised days nuanced opinions are sadly becoming extinct. I feel I need to pick a side and defend it and get angry with anyone who disagrees with me. :hehe::hehe:
Definitely not and I'm not just taking a side, it's utter nonsense how anyone can defend it is beyond me.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
As it was 20 near schools double parked cars etc, not every road going.
And I don't see anyone arguing to the contrary.Quote:
Originally Posted by AfricanBluebird
The biggest issue for me (at least) and one I see others repeating are those roads where 20mph is totally unnecessary.
The road through Hopkinstown linking Pontypridd with the Rhondda is an arterial road. It was changed to 20mph then quickly changed back to 30mph, presumably as it's a busy link road and the only road from Ponty to the lower Rhondda valleys.Quote:
Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue
If that road is ok to drive at 30mph, can anyone tell me why other similar arterial roads should be 20 instead? It makes a mockery of the whole thing.
it isn't every road going, and it never has beenQuote:
Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue
no that's not my logic at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy the Jock
cities all over the world have made similar changes to speed limits in residential areas because it saves lives and has very little impact on most people.
the vast majority of people hardly drive on residential streets, maybe a short amount at either end of a journey. Changing this to 20 has a very small overall impact for the benefit it causes.
a change to 10mph is of course a much more drastic change and would be very noticeable, of course I wouldn't be for that
Yes it is blanket 30mph all changed to 20mph.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
Talk of changing some back before the election but no action in NC.
I drive on several roads that are 30mph every dayQuote:
Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue
no its notQuote:
Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue
I was driving through Tylorstown to Maerdy a few weeks ago, it was 20mph with cameras. If it has since changed then fair enough, but I imagine that has an impact on people. I remember working in Dinas Rhondda last year and before the speed change there was little traffic coming towards Pontypridd, the same week the changes happened they were backing up past the heritage hotel. That is an impact in my eyes, luckily like Eric mentions they've seen sense and changed it to 30 through Hopkinstown, but if its still 20 further up then I imagine its still having an impact on people at peak times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
That road between Porth and Ponty can get very busy at peak times and can be very quiet at times as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dembe
The question has to be that, if there are roads where reverting back to 30mph has been done as traffic flow is more important that road safety, then how can anyone argue that road safety is the biggest priority, as in some places, this obviously cannot be the case.
Where has been changed in Lisvane, Thornhill, Whitchurch and Rhiwbina?Quote:
Originally Posted by poc
Yes, walk along there regularly enough, when I do drive though even just to lidl or even to grab fuel in Asda garage it is miserable on the way back as its one lane through town now with the work to the new bus stop opposite the station so it backs all the way up through Hopkinstown even 11am in the morning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
If it is still 20 between Tylorstown and Maerdy you can see why people would be annoyed as thats their only route down.
The road is 20mph Tylorstown to Maerdy. There are schools in the vicinity and cars parked on one side a lot of the way. Also driving through Ferndale High Street would be a no no at 30.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dembe
I drive that road regularly and don't have any issue with it being 20mph. With buses slow moving vehicles it's probably nomore than a minute or 2 added to that journey.
I fairly certain the main Hopkinstown Rd has always been 30 and rightly so.
This policy is slowing Wales down and is forecast to hit the Welsh economy by up to £9billion
https://www.gbnews.com/lifestyle/car...ed-limit-wales
There are plenty of roads similar to that one where previously they were 30, driving with common sense used to be a thing, you can do 30 in parts on that road easy, I am not sure why cars parked on one side of the road make it a 20 tbh, I went through there at 20 as thats the limit but honestly see no harm in allowing the limit to remain at 30 like it was for years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilts
20 past schools, absolutely.
My point about time was these limits will have a knock on effect, takes you longer to get to Ponty from the valleys, so you're later getting on to the a470, later getting onto the m4, later getting on to the m5 etc. The point rjk made was it had no impact, I was just showing how it possibly could have for some.
If you can get over 20mph on this road even if the speed limit was 70 mph I take my hat off to you . Its nip n tuck in and out of the traffic . Only a lunatic would try to get any speed up on this road .Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilts
I have already said I can see the point round schools and built up areas where you have a lot of pedestrians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
Here are my questions
8 deaths are down to 7 . Fair enough , how many were the deaths by drink drivers with no regard for the speed limit.
You could make the speed limit 2mph , once you have that 6th pint ....who cares ?
How many were youngsters racing through a built up area , once again no regard for speed limits .
To make a fair and balanced review you need the facts.
If you could prove to me the deaths were solely because the speed limit I would review my opinion.
I wonder how many people have been run over on Ocean Way in the last 15 years ?
One road that annoys me is the A4119 through Groes Faen. Camera's at either end of the village with a 20mph speed limit. Always a ballsache to drive through.
In fact the rest of the A4119 towards Cardiff is a mess. Variable speed limits (I've mentioned this before) ranging from 20 through Groes Faen to 30, 40 and 60 in different places but so many cars drive at 20 - 30 all the way along. So frustrating.
If you're behind the same vehicle all the way it doesn't really make much difference to your arrival time. There's so many junctions or roundabouts these days there's little chance of maintaining the same speed for any decent length of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Morris
Not like years ago when the only interruption was at Groesfaen.
Depends on where you are, though. That isn't the case everywhere by a long chalk.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bloop
The speed limit isn't the issue, it's so many people who are poor drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Morris
Many drivers on the A470 get on my nerves. The speed limit is 50 then 70 then back to 50 and so many plod along at 50 through all three sections often in the overtaking lane not overtaking anything
I haven't changed my mind but I do think it's been badly implemented in some places.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Maerdy to Tylorstown had been mentioned. There are parts of that stretch that should return to 30 and elements that should stay at 20.
I don't think its consistent.
I was in west Wales last night, drove through Felinfoel and there are some 20 roads and some 30 but they all look the same with residential areas, maybe I missed a school, but there were multiple 20 roads that were identical to others that were 30.