A&E and ambulance performance worst ever - again

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

I will make a point that people (of all sides) might not like. Wales is a county of England when it comes to government spending. To pretend that they have real actionable choices is insane or deliberately misleading. There is a crystal clear aim to underfund healthcare in the UK, I don't even know what kind of evidence the people who deny that want to see anymore? It is a snowball going down a hill and we are becoming exponentially more ****ed as each day goes by.

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:thumbup: the only people being “sectarian” are the people denying this because they’re more interested in party politics than actual issues.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

In Germany you are given two options: pay into the state system or pay privately. Its either or, not a top up.

One is cheaper than the other when you're younger, but becomes more expensive as you get older. The split is about 77/23 the last time I checked, albeit a few years ago, on favour of public.

There is no stigma attached to using either, and all doctors and medical facilities are privately delivered, but funded by one of the above two methods.

It's an excellent system and provides more timely quality care (for all) than what we are used to in the UK.

Thats not knocking the NHS, I dont see why my BUPA cover can pay for a specialist tomorrow, but the NHS won't pay for the same specialist for 12 months or whatever

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Well addressing the bold, because that is all they have to do.

Addressing the rest, what is the per capita spend on healthcare in Germany vs the UK. I don't know it, but any accountant worth their while wouldn't exclude a key figure like that from their post unless there was good reason to do so.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I don't know about the original poster but most people who attack the Welsh NHS on here and in the media etc are fecking tory voters

So I always like it when things such as that little turd saeed making money on the back of the NHS in England are pointed out .....look what you could have won ! ��

Jeremy hunt , the stupid can't, Hancock and now saaed, all English health secretaries , all at it !

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I’m certainly not a Tory voter, but that stat I quoted earlier is shocking and a big indictment on Welsh Labour. Does the UK want to keep an NHS in something like the format it had when it was originated? Whether it’s under Labour in Wales, the Tories in England or the SNP in Scotland, the NHS is struggling and has been for years. I think it’s time for bold thinking and would welcome the appointment of a politically neutral group with a remit to rule nothing out in coming up with proposals as to how we can continue with the NHS in its original entity. That would almost certainly cost a great deal and so, inevitably, we’d end up paying for it in some way - the proposals could then be voted on and the country could decide whether it really values the NHS as much as it always says it does when asked in opinion polls.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I’m certainly not a Tory voter, but that stat I quoted earlier is shocking and a big indictment on Welsh Labour. Does the UK want to keep an NHS in something like the format it had when it was originated? Whether it’s under Labour in Wales, the Tories in England or the SNP in Scotland, the NHS is struggling and has been for years. I think it’s time for bold thinking and would welcome the appointment of a politically neutral group with a remit to rule nothing out in coming up with proposals as to how we can continue with the NHS in its original entity. That would almost certainly cost a great deal and so, inevitably, we’d end up paying for it in some way - the proposals could then be voted on and the country could decide whether it really values the NHS as much as it always says it does when asked in opinion polls.

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The population is increasing

People are living longer

Unless as wages increase , tax increases and spending on the NHS increases then the black hole , which will always be big will get bigger and bigger

The targets and performance indicators are a big part of the problem

Less money since the financial crash , an increasing population , covid , higher expectations and a public that votes for a party that wants to keep taxes low and spending low

Unless we can stop people breeding and shoot everyone over 70 then this is the future

There have been lots of reforms of the NHS . The time it has been given praise in recent years was the early period of the Blair government when lots of money was put in . He Naffed all that up very quickly though .

However apart from structural reform investment is what is needed . If we want more ambulances , we need more paramedics . Which cost money .

If taxation isn't raised ......and people don't want that as they have voted Conservative......who control the money ........then either we get what we get or the private sector take over

I don't think it's much more complicated than that

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The population is increasing

People are living longer

Unless as wages increase , tax increases and spending on the NHS increases then the black hole , which will always be big will get bigger and bigger

The targets and performance indicators are a big part of the problem

Less money since the financial crash , an increasing population , covid , higher expectations and a public that votes for a party that wants to keep taxes low and spending low

Unless we can stop people breeding and shoot everyone over 70 then this is the future

There have been lots of reforms of the NHS . The time it has been given praise in recent years was the early period of the Blair government when lots of money was put in . He Naffed all that up very quickly though .

However apart from structural reform investment is what is needed . If we want more ambulances , we need more paramedics . Which cost money .

If taxation isn't raised ......and people don't want that as they have voted Conservative......who control the money ........then either we get what we get or the private sector take over

I don't think it's much more complicated than that

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Didn't the Westminster Government just impose higher taxation to fund the demands of NHS/Social care

They faced criticism from opposition parties and pointed out that the Tories of now the party of taxation.

I found this quote after last budget announcement:

""Britain’s tax burden will rise to highest in 70 years
Every worker to pay 1.25% health and social care levy""

Nothing stopping (Mr Drakeford ) raising tax rates for Welsh workers due to the allowable adjustments to income tax introduced in April 2019.

I don't think the NHS in its current state is not fundable and its a great political toy for politicians to play around with knowing the emotional attachment the public has with it .

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

:thumbup: the only people being “sectarian” are the people denying this because they’re more interested in party politics than actual issues.

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You're right, but not about the posters you think.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Well addressing the bold, because that is all they have to do.

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I'm really not sure what it is you're trying to say here.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Addressing the rest, what is the per capita spend on healthcare in Germany vs the UK. I don't know it, but any accountant worth their while wouldn't exclude a key figure like that from their post unless there was good reason to do so.

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I've not looked but I'd guess the Germans spend more per capita on healthcare that we do, although I do believe less is collected via taxation given more is paid for directly by the individual. Its a fair point you make though, because if we want healthcare (and education) to be the best possible quality for all, then funding does need to increase. whether that is individually or via taxation is moot.

The problem for me, and I'd hazard a guess a lot of the electorate, is that you have people such as Sludge and Jon1959 who think the only way to deliver good quality public services is via the leviathan that is the state. Looking at those healthcare and education systems which are way ahead of our own (such has Finland, Germany and Switzerland) show quite clearly their thinking is muddled if not anachronistic. There are other options in between the American system and what we have now, but they just don't seem to be able to comprehend this.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The population is increasing

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so more people in work means more taxes

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

People are living longer

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yes, but people are leading healthier lifestyles also

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Unless as wages increase , tax increases and spending on the NHS increases then the black hole , which will always be big will get bigger and bigger

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this government is collecting more in taxes than any before it since the 1950s.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The targets and performance indicators are a big part of the problem

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state bureaucracy, you used to love it. giving people non jobs doesn't add value or do anything productive and takes away money from front line services.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Less money since the financial crash , an increasing population , covid , higher expectations and a public that votes for a party that wants to keep taxes low and spending low

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taxes low, come on sludge, the Tory party are not the party of low taxes.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Unless we can stop people breeding and shoot everyone over 70 then this is the future

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I feel there are steps we can take to address the problem before we have to resort to this

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

There have been lots of reforms of the NHS . The time it has been given praise in recent years was the early period of the Blair government when lots of money was put in . He Naffed all that up very quickly though.

However apart from structural reform investment is what is needed . If we want more ambulances , we need more paramedics . Which cost money.

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maybe change the way we buy things, centralised purchasing thus increasing buying power of the NHS. Reduce the management and increase doctors and nurses. Why do we need league tables - we never used to have them and the NHS operated better then than it did now.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

If taxation isn't raised ......and people don't want that as they have voted Conservative......who control the money ........then either we get what we get or the private sector take over

I don't think it's much more complicated than that

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the Tories are taxing us more than ever before. You're blinded by dogma. They are also putting more into the NHS, although the increasing population and the time value of money means you would expect this to happen each year anyway.

Its not just about taxation as (some) individuals could pay for their own healthcare if they wanted to. There is nothing wrong with private insurance as it alleviates the burden on the NHS, and those that an afford it should really do so, thus lessening the burden on the NHS so a better quality can be provided to those who cannot afford private healthcare.

THREAD KILLER!

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

THREAD KILLER!

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good. because some posters have tried to make this thread about the Tories and the English NHS, rather than focussing on Wales, The welsh NHS and The Welsh government. Imagine my shock to see they've tried to do that rather than addressing/acknowledging the very clear and obvious failings of Welsh Labour.

....this is why, none of us, in a medical emergency, think "quick, I need an accountant!"

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

....this is why, none of us, in a medical emergency, think "quick, I need an accountant!"

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:hehe:

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

....this is why, none of us, in a medical emergency, think "quick, I need an accountant!"

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if you think you need an accountant in a medical emergency then the point of no return has already passed

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Originally Posted by Feedback

if you think you need an accountant in a medical emergency then the point of no return has already passed

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Not true - the patient could be psychotic.

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

Not true - the patient could be psychotic.

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Thats describing a few on here