Runcorn by election.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

You completely missed out Option C.

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which is?

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Labour arent popular at the moment, but then for the Westminster elections it makes little difference for now they have a huge yes shallow majority - it will get eroded but not to the point they cannot function.

If in the next 4 years the economy improves and people are feeling more comfortable then they will point to that and probably do well.
If we are still scraping along the bottom they'll have to fight the election on at least we aren't the other lot, which is a risky strategy, but would probably be the only think left to them at that point.

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That's exactly the sort of displacement that will lead to a reform or reform tory victory at the next election

Starmer is having his poll tax moment , already which is a shame but he's just not up to the job and he's got to be replaced as soon as possible

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Originally Posted by Rjk

which is?

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Get rid of starmer and his mates

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Get rid of starmer and his mates

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thats only happening at a general election

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Originally Posted by Rjk

thats only happening at a general election

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Not if he faces a rebellion over a certain absolute wipe out

The complete slaughter of Welsh Labour next may will be his nemesis

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Not if he faces a rebellion over a certain absolute wipe out

The complete slaughter of Welsh Labour next may will be his nemesis

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I don't think welsh Labour losing would have much effect on the UK labour party. Starmer will be the prime minister until the next general election to think otherwise is extremely naive.

The only winners of a labour collapse in Wales are Reform and Farage.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

I don't think welsh Labour losing would have much effect on the UK labour party. Starmer will be the prime minister until the next general election to think otherwise is extremely naive.

The only winners of a labour collapse in Wales are Reform and Farage.

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Labour is sinking nationally and in Wales

It's all about damage limitation

A return to a charismatic leader both nationally and in Wales would shore up what's left of the support and ensure coalition government in both Wales and Westminster

Leave things as they are and fail to make concessions regarding obvious policy screw ups and its absolute curtains

Labour's support is leaking faster than the titanic

It seems that some people to still be in complete denial as here

We are not talking about labour failing to get a majority to govern

We are not talking about a less than ideal coalition both nationally and in Wales

We are talking about a complete wipe out to the right wing

It's incredibly serious and worrying and Labour needs to stop trying to carry on regardless and start delivering

He and his cabinet are utterly incompetent

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Originally Posted by Rjk

I don't think welsh Labour losing would have much effect on the UK labour party. Starmer will be the prime minister until the next general election to think otherwise is extremely naive.

The only winners of a labour collapse in Wales are Reform and Farage.

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Not sure about the last paragraph. The advantage reform have right now is they don't have a record to defend. Winning in Wales and achieving less than nothing between then and the next general election could affect their wider support.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Labour is sinking nationally and in Wales

It's all about damage limitation

A return to a charismatic leader both nationally and in Wales would shore up what's left of the support and ensure coalition government in both Wales and Westminster

Leave things as they are and fail to make concessions regarding obvious policy screw ups and its absolute curtains

Labour's support is leaking faster than the titanic

It seems that some people to still be in complete denial as here

We are not talking about labour failing to get a majority to govern

We are not talking about a less than ideal coalition both nationally and in Wales

We are talking about a complete wipe out to the right wing

It's incredibly serious and worrying and Labour needs to stop trying to carry on regardless and start delivering

He and his cabinet are utterly incompetent

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What are the obvious policy screw ups that they should make concessions over?

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Not sure about the last paragraph. The advantage reform have right now is they don't have a record to defend. Winning in Wales and achieving less than nothing between then and the next general election could affect their wider support.

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Cobblers they could do whatever they wanted , their followers won't care a toss

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

What are the obvious policy screw ups that they should make concessions over?

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Well I have already told you that

You might not think people are thinking they are behaving like Tories but their core vote does

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Cobblers they could do whatever they wanted , their followers won't care a toss

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So what's the point then? It's inevitable right?

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

So what's the point then? It's inevitable right?

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Damage limitation

Reform are now part of the political landscape

A right bunch of chancers but if around 20 percent , maybe more of the electorate vote for them then Labour, liberals and the rest need to bang heads together

There's never going to be a party with a big majority in this country ever again and realistically the very best to hope for is labour winning the most seats and forming a coalition

It's not going to be able to do that with starmer in charge , he's absolutely incompetent as are his disciples ....Reeves, Kendal etc .....

The twenty percent is lost to reform , forget that bunch

If he gets axed there might be a chance of clawing back some support and forming that coalition

If he stays it's curtains

It's as simple as that

Get rid or it's reform and the Tories

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well I have already told you that

You might not think people are thinking they are behaving like Tories but their core vote does

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Well they will win then won't they? People like voting for Tories.

Unfortunately sludge, you just wail on and on about getting rid of Starmer and getting in a leader with charisma (what you mean by that I don't know). You very rarely say anything about policy beyond popular policy = good, unpopular policy = bad. I don't really know where you stand on anything.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Well they will win then won't they? People like voting for Tories.

Unfortunately sludge, you just wail on and on about getting rid of Starmer and getting in a leader with charisma (what you mean by that I don't know). You very rarely say anything about policy beyond popular policy = good, unpopular policy = bad. I don't really know where you stand on anything.

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No , pay attention

If labour get rid of starmer they should get enough of a boost to win the most seats

The bloke is toxic , weak and you might not see he's driving people away but those on the doorstep do

I don't know any labour voters who think hes anything but a complete let down

And if labour voters think he's hopeless then it's obvious those on the fringes have an even lower opinion of him

The core voters are not backing him ......you can go on playing the game of philosophical chess and yeah but no but in the same way Cardiff City sleepwalked into relegation then suddenly were powerless to stop it .....Starmer and Labour are taking us in the nightmare of a right wing government in rapid time

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

No , pay attention

If labour get rid of starmer they should get enough of a boost to win the most seats

The bloke is toxic , weak and you might not see he's driving people away but those on the doorstep do

I don't know any labour voters who think hes anything but a complete let down

And if labour voters think he's hopeless then it's obvious those on the fringes have an even lower opinion of him

The core voters are not backing him ......you can go on playing the game of philosophical chess and yeah but no but in the same way Cardiff City sleepwalked into relegation then suddenly were powerless to stop it .....Starmer and Labour are taking us in the nightmare of a right wing government in rapid time

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So you aren't willing to say which policies you agree or disagree with?

I just don't understand why someone would be politically engaged enough to waste so much time posting about politics on the internet and not have any kind of thoughts about the direction they want the country to go in.

I'm not really interested in the Punch and Judy bullshit and I certainly won't judge a government based on how 'charismatic' they are.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

So you aren't willing to say which policies you agree or disagree with?

I just don't understand why someone would be politically engaged enough to waste so much time posting about politics on the internet and not have any kind of thoughts about the direction they want the country to go in.

I'm not really interested in the Punch and Judy bullshit and I certainly won't judge a government based on how 'charismatic' they are.

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I have told you several times what policies are clearly going to sink the labour party , you must be either incredibly dull or being deliberately stupid if you are saying you are not aware what those are

Rachel Reeves and Liz Kendal are responsible for implementing policies which have caused huge mistrust and have stabbed in the back those that voted Labour in

Now you can go on about reducing public spending , the benefits bill , welfare till you are Blue in the face .....sic .....but at a time when labour needs every vote it can get as reform flexes it's muscles what labour have done is shot itself in the foot to appease the right wing .....who we now know have a new party to vote for ......so it's utterly suicidal to push forward when the consequences of losing that next election will be calamity

Starmer and Reeves and their ilk will just wipe out any opposition for a few brownie points that won't interest the reform surge

Thatcher thought her poll tax was for the good of the country .....best direction etc .......

Good luck if you think some kind of pseudo balance sheet approach is what's needed.....and in this case , if it ever were

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I have told you several times what policies are clearly going to sink the labour party , you must be either incredibly dull or being deliberately stupid if you are saying you are not aware what those are

Rachel Reeves and Liz Kendal are responsible for implementing policies which have caused huge mistrust and have stabbed in the back those that voted Labour in

Now you can go on about reducing public spending , the benefits bill , welfare till you are Blue in the face .....sic .....but at a time when labour needs every vote it can get as reform flexes it's muscles what labour have done is shot itself in the foot to appease the right wing .....who we now know have a new party to vote for ......so it's utterly suicidal to push forward when the consequences of losing that next election will be calamity

Starmer and Reeves and their ilk will just wipe out any opposition for a few brownie points that won't interest the reform surge

Thatcher thought her poll tax was for the good of the country .....best direction etc .......

Good luck if you think some kind of pseudo balance sheet approach is what's needed.....and in this case , if it ever were

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I didn't ask what will sink them, I asked what you thought. If death camps polled well would you be in favour of them because it keeps reform out?

Fundamentally I don't think a universal winter fuel allowance is right.

I am less convinced about the benefits changes but the numbers/direction are pretty clearly unsustainable.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

I didn't ask what will sink them, I asked what you thought. If death camps polled well would you be in favour of them because it keeps reform out?

Fundamentally I don't think a universal winter fuel allowance is right.

I am less convinced about the benefits changes but the numbers/direction are pretty clearly unsustainable.

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No universal benefits and allowances are right but starmer royally screwed up and his stubbornness over the matter shows how out of touch he is

You don't get people on side by making it more difficult for disabled people to live

To reduce fraud and waste you employ more fraud teams not put the vulnerable through more and more scrutiny till they stop living

If the amount provided is to be reduced or frozen for someone in a wheelchair on the grounds that at present the economy can't cope then that's a concensus many people could deal with

If proposals were genuinely to support people into part time work or in some cases full employment then again that could be a winner

But this sort of we will help those genuinely ill or disabled , we will target funding etc etc is just a cover to hack away, it's absolute bullshit

You have been reading too much propaganda

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

I didn't ask what will sink them, I asked what you thought. If death camps polled well would you be in favour of them because it keeps reform out?

Fundamentally I don't think a universal winter fuel allowance is right.

I am less convinced about the benefits changes but the numbers/direction are pretty clearly unsustainable.

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I absolutely don't think a universal winter fuel allowance is right. In my opinion it should be strictly means tested. However in this case I think for the sake of saving a relatively small amount of money Labour have shot themselves in the foot.

I think Labour could have made the case very well for not squandering money on people who don't need it while caring for those that do by curtailing the payment for the more well off but keeping it for the average Joe. By not raising the threshold to a more reasonable level before stopping the WFA they have managed to alienate a large core of voters. They could have achieved a massive propaganda hit if they had handled the issue with more intelligence.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

I didn't ask what will sink them, I asked what you thought. If death camps polled well would you be in favour of them because it keeps reform out?

Fundamentally I don't think a universal winter fuel allowance is right.

I am less convinced about the benefits changes but the numbers/direction are pretty clearly unsustainable.

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You make a good debate but are trying to reason with someone who is still fixated with someone who lost power 34 years ago !!! And when she came to power wasn't old enough to vote.

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Originally Posted by Heathblue

You make a good debate but are trying to reason with someone who is still fixated with someone who lost power 34 years ago !!! And when she came to power wasn't old enough to vote.

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Coming from someone fixated by right wing creeps but still playing the deserving working class violin that's irony on a massive scale

Have you got your farage trump world tour t shirt yet ?

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

I absolutely don't think a universal winter fuel allowance is right. In my opinion it should be strictly means tested. However in this case I think for the sake of saving a relatively small amount of money Labour have shot themselves in the foot.

I think Labour could have made the case very well for not squandering money on people who don't need it while caring for those that do by curtailing the payment for the more well off but keeping it for the average Joe. By not raising the threshold to a more reasonable level before stopping the WFA they have managed to alienate a large core of voters. They could have achieved a massive propaganda hit if they had handled the issue with more intelligence.

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That's about right

The farage crew have a new party so it's pointless skirting around with policy to appease them

The issue of public spending has been handled so badly it's as if it's been thought out on the back of a fag packet

It's not a case of either we slash spending and if we don't the country goes to hell in a handcart

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Coming from someone fixated by right wing creeps but still playing the deserving working class violin that's irony on a massive scale

Have you got your farage trump world tour t shirt yet ?

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The big London gig is at Buck Pal with Charlie boy. I'll give it a miss myself but do you know the rest of the lineup? I wonder if Kemi is Bad Enough to be included? Personally I think she is.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

I absolutely don't think a universal winter fuel allowance is right. In my opinion it should be strictly means tested. However in this case I think for the sake of saving a relatively small amount of money Labour have shot themselves in the foot.

I think Labour could have made the case very well for not squandering money on people who don't need it while caring for those that do by curtailing the payment for the more well off but keeping it for the average Joe. By not raising the threshold to a more reasonable level before stopping the WFA they have managed to alienate a large core of voters. They could have achieved a massive propaganda hit if they had handled the issue with more intelligence.

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Its about perception though, 25% of pensioners live in a household with net worth north of a million so who is the 'average Joe' when it comes to policies like this? I agree though that the comms were god awful though, they first tried to say they 'didnt want to do it but had to in order to save money', which then was questioned as it being linked to pension credit meant more people signing up to that and any savings being wiped out.

The net result is a better targeted benefit (putting aside whether the threshold is set high enough, which is certainly worth it's own debate), distributing more of the pot to the very worst off pensioners and taking away a benefit from the best off. But because of Comms labour have left themselves not really able to point to that as a success because their stated aim was to save money.

Might be flippant but I would ask the mail and the sun where all the frozen corpses are being stored because thousands were going to die because of the change apparently, but they this is the political landscape right now, bombastic rhetoric over sane debate.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Its about perception though, 25% of pensioners live in a household with net worth north of a million so who is the 'average Joe' when it comes to policies like this? I agree though that the comms were god awful though, they first tried to say they 'didnt want to do it but had to in order to save money', which then was questioned as it being linked to pension credit meant more people signing up to that and any savings being wiped out.

The net result is a better targeted benefit (putting aside whether the threshold is set high enough, which is certainly worth it's own debate), distributing more of the pot to the very worst off pensioners and taking away a benefit from the best off. But because of Comms labour have left themselves not really able to point to that as a success because their stated aim was to save money.

Might be flippant but I would ask the mail and the sun where all the frozen corpses are being stored because thousands were going to die because of the change apparently, but they this is the political landscape right now, bombastic rhetoric over sane debate.

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Agree with your last paragraph and many are gullible enough to believe it 👍

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Agree with your last paragraph and many are gullible enough to believe it 👍

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We've had that shite for years and years and through all of the austerity years.

Boris murdered pensioners, Theresa May's dementia tax, Blair killer British troops etc etc.. Such bombastic rhetoric is as old as politics itself.

I agree, it's stupid.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

We've had that shite for years and years and through all of the austerity years.

Boris murdered pensioners, Theresa May's dementia tax, Blair killer British troops etc etc.. Such bombastic rhetoric is as old as politics itself.

I agree, it's stupid.

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To be fair Blair absolutely lied about wmd and sent young men to their deaths