-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Brilliant post I've thought the same myself when you see unbalanced argument on many subjects, I believe as you say it's media driven ,selective interest,and political point scoring .
What do you make of Trump using the shootings for political point scoring?
Making a newly orphaned and injured baby return to the hospital so he could give a thumbs up photo op.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">From the First Lady’s twitter account, this appears to be the baby both of whose parents died shielding him from the El Paso shooter. The baby in question was discharged the day before and brought back for Trumps visit. Child is not id’d on <a href="https://twitter.com/FLOTUS?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@flotus</a> account. But appears to... <a href="https://t.co/17L6XQROMS">pic.twitter.com/17L6XQROMS</a></p>— Josh Marshall (@joshtpm) <a href="https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1159672304542126082?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 9, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
And releasing this video.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">My time spent in Dayton and El Paso with some of the greatest people on earth. Thank you for a job well done! <a href="https://t.co/TNVDGhxOpo">pic.twitter.com/TNVDGhxOpo</a></p>— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) <a href="https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1159298817478414337?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 8, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Heisenberg
Slaves were once classed as property too (in the nation that we're discussing). I suppose you would have been against the emancipation proclamation too?
Why would you suppose that then ?
Slavery is hardly unique to the USA and slaves have always been those who were unable to defend themselves
-
Re: Another mass shooting
This is a pretty brutal takedown of Trump's baby photo op.
https://www.thecut.com/amp/2019/08/t...-shooting.html
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
Why would you suppose that then ?
Slavery is hardly unique to the USA and slaves have always been those who were unable to defend themselves
I'm just following your own logic.
You said that "it's a fundamental right to own property" - slaves were once property - you'd have been against the abolition of slavery since it's taking away your fundamental right to own property.
I'm slightly worried that you didn't tell me that I'm wrong.
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
Just shows how he lacks empathy imo. The man is a freak.
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
Who or what determines such human rights?
Ah, you must read the US Constitution. They're "inalienable" rights granted by God.
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
Fair enough and thanks for answering plainly, you can't escape the fact that this position causes children to needlessly die.
Do you think there should be speed limits on roads?
Different thing. No reason why there shouldn't be laws against using guns or anything else in a dangerous way.
A speed limit isn't banning cars is it ?
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Heisenberg
I'm just following your own logic.
You said that "it's a fundamental right to own property" - slaves were once property - you'd have been against the abolition of slavery since it's taking away your fundamental right to own property.
I'm slightly worried that you didn't tell me that I'm wrong.
Slaves aren't property now are they ?
I'm not sure how you can compare holding a human being captive with owning a gun.
I own guns and in the past I've handled and used very heavy duty weaponry but I've never committed a crime with them or been irresponsible with them. The guns don't harm anyone unless used to do so by a human being, and that is who is responsible if anyone is harmed.
As far as what anyone might have said about slavery at the time when it was questioned, none of us can say if we're truthful.
It might seem obvious to us now that it's wrong, but you can't apply modern thinking to a different age, or vice versa.
Remember, being pro slavery was the default position of the establishment at the time and that the idea of abolishen was a controversial one at first. If you want me to guess, I'd expect that the people here who get angry about individualists or people questioning the State would be throwing similar stones at abolishenists as they do now at " climate change deniers ".
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
Ah, you must read the US Constitution. They're "inalienable" rights granted by God.
I think you should probably read the US constitution, god isn't mentioned once
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
Different thing. No reason why there shouldn't be laws against using guns or anything else in a dangerous way.
A speed limit isn't banning cars is it ?
You have hit the nail on the head. There are laws in place to prevent cars becoming unnecessarily dangerous. We also don't let people drive a car if they are more likely to be a danger to other people when using it, i.e. if they don't possess a license that proves they are save to use it, if they don't possess valid insurance (I imagine gun ownership would go down if you had to take out insurance to pay for any 'accidents' that happen) or if they are deemed to be medically unsafe to drive (medically unsafe to own a gun?).
It is bizarre that there are some background checks in store but not at 'gun shows' and that the resale market has almost no legal restrictions placed on it.
There are lots of options for the USA here and yet they will probably sit on their hands.
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
Slaves aren't property now are they ? No they're not, which is the point that I've been making all along that you seem to be purposely avoiding. Slaves are no longer property because enough people believed that it wasn't a fundamental right for people to own that particular property.
I'm not sure how you can compare holding a human being captive with owning a gun. You know exactly how I can compare them as at some point in the not too distant past, both slaves and guns have been considered a form of property and one of your pro-gun arguments is that it's a fundamental right to own property, which means that you either condone owning all forms of property or you get to pick and choose like the rest of us what we deem to be appropriate. Hence, the emancipation proclamation and slavery being abolished.
I own guns and in the past I've handled and used very heavy duty weaponry but I've never committed a crime with them or been irresponsible with them. The guns don't harm anyone unless used to do so by a human being, and that is who is responsible if anyone is harmed. Well done for not harming anyone with one of your guns. If only there was a way of possibly controlling which human beings cab get a hold of these guns to possibly lower the chances of them being used to commit a crime or be "irresponsible with them" (irresponsible, like committing mass murder, irresponsible
As far as what anyone might have said about slavery at the time when it was questioned, none of us can say if we're truthful.
It might seem obvious to us now that it's wrong, but you can't apply modern thinking to a different age, or vice versa. Congratulations, this is exactly the point that I'm trying to make. At some point in time it was deemed appropriate to be able to own another human being by a large proportion of people. In present day, a large proportion of people deem it appropriate to be able to own automatic rifles.... it doesn't make it right and perhaps in the future, it may seem obvious to everyone how wrong it was to think that way too.
Remember, being pro slavery was the default position of the establishment at the time and that the idea of abolishen was a controversial one at first. You mean, like the idea of gun control now?
If you want me to guess, I'd expect that the people here who get angry about individualists or people questioning the State would be throwing similar stones at abolishenists as they do now at " climate change deniers ". I haven't got a clue what you're talking about, sorry.
.
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Heisenberg
.
No, you've got that completely wrong. It's not that owning property and the right to do so which was changed, it's that the definition of what property is that was changed. The point was that a human being could no longer be considered property.
Of course there already are laws to prevent convicted felons or mentally ill people from owning or having guns, which is obviously a good idea.
You take me up on the use of the word "irresponsible " but I said " committed a crime OR been irresponsible ". No reasonable interpretation of that as a description of mass murder is possible . Of course you have to be responsible with guns in that you don't leave them lying round where the kids can get hold of them or anything.
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
City123
I think you should probably read the US constitution, god isn't mentioned once
“We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights "
Which is actually from the Declaration of Independence , but is considered in law to comprise a preamble to the USC, and taken as the legal definition of "inalienable "
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Also , since the USC acknowledges and includes State Constitutions, it is reasonable to infer the intention to include God, since each and every State Constitution, ( even California and New York !) does in fact reference God.
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
“We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights "
Which is actually from the Declaration of Independence , but is considered in law to comprise a preamble to the USC, and taken as the legal definition of "inalienable "
So it isn't in the US constitution
Its ok to admit you made a mistake
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
Of course there already are laws to prevent convicted felons or mentally ill people from owning or having guns, which is obviously a good idea.
There are no background checks required during a private sale, the seller also isn't obliged to record the sale. So unless you are an incredibly stupid criminal or mentally ill person you know exactly how to get hold of a deadly weapon.
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
There are no background checks required during a private sale, the seller also isn't obliged to record the sale. So unless you are an incredibly stupid criminal or mentally ill person you know exactly how to get hold of a deadly weapon.
Yeah that’s true and you can introduce checks for gun shows but that’s impractical . You’ve got to understand that there are much easier ways to get illegal guns in the USA and always will be because there are millions and millions of them already in circulation
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
City123
So it isn't in the US constitution
Its ok to admit you made a mistake
This has been argued for years and it’s been held that the Declaration is part of the Constitution, but if you like I made a mistake because it’s really not a competition
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
Different thing. No reason why there shouldn't be laws against using guns or anything else in a dangerous way.
A speed limit isn't banning cars is it ?
Gun control isn't banning guns is it?
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
It is isn't it. You get more cynical about all politicians the older you get, but this lot are on a different level completely - awful, awful human beings.
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
It is isn't it. You get more cynical about all politicians the older you get, but this lot are on a different level completely - awful, awful human beings.
A two month old orphaned as his parents were protecting him from a gunman as they were doing the food shopping. No one would think it appropriate to pose with a thumbs up next to this baby. You're wrong to use the word human being in this context.
Any other president would have been crucified for this. But in Trump's America it will have made no difference to his popularity.
-
Re: Another mass shooting
The baby had already left the hospital and they asked to get him brought back for the photo op.
****ing ghouls
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
“We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights "
Which is actually from the Declaration of Independence , but is considered in law to comprise a preamble to the USC, and taken as the legal definition of "inalienable "
More akin to Citizens' Rights than Human Rights perhaps.
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
Gun control isn't banning guns is it?
Depends on the level of control.
Those who drive the movement for gun control want them out of the hands of the people for sinister motives. They really don't care about human suffering or they wouldn't be constantly instituting pointless wars for financial benefit.
Being very sly , they weaponise the naive sensibilities of the fluoride generation to create the impression that giving up their own ultimate means of self protection.
It's like trying to persuade a kid not to take sweets from a kindly stranger who's offering them a lift to Disneyland.
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
Depends on the level of control.
Those who drive the movement for gun control want them out of the hands of the people for sinister motives. They really don't care about human suffering or they wouldn't be constantly instituting pointless wars for financial benefit.
Being very sly , they weaponise the naive sensibilities of the fluoride generation to create the impression that giving up their own ultimate means of self protection.
It's like trying to persuade a kid not to take sweets from a kindly stranger who's offering them a lift to Disneyland.
Let me get this straight. You're saying that people in the US who want gun control are also all starting wars to make money?
None of them are parents who just don't want guns at their kids school?
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Why do you bother? The man posts on here 20 hours a day and it’s all fantasy. He’ll never change his mind, he’ll never admit he’s talking bollocks and he’ll never be rational.
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
Depends on the level of control.
Those who drive the movement for gun control want them out of the hands of the people for sinister motives. They really don't care about human suffering or they wouldn't be constantly instituting pointless wars for financial benefit.
Being very sly , they weaponise the naive sensibilities of the fluoride generation to create the impression that giving up their own ultimate means of self protection.
It's like trying to persuade a kid not to take sweets from a kindly stranger who's offering them a lift to Disneyland.
What a steaming pile of horse shit.
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rudy gestede
Why do you bother? The man posts on here 20 hours a day and it’s all fantasy. He’ll never change his mind, he’ll never admit he’s talking bollocks and he’ll never be rational.
I'll get bored of it long before he does, no question there.
-
Re: Another mass shooting
20 hours a day ?
No son , I just turn it on occasionally if I sit down to rest my sciatica.
I've put a view here which is perfectly rational and which is quite consistent with the motives and beliefs of the Founding Fathers and countless millions of Americans and others who consider individual rights more important than the promises of tyrants to protect people.
These promises are never kept, by the way, and if decent men were disarmed criminals and lunatics would still get guns to commit atrocities .
That's almost by the way though. The more pressing issue here is that we've got a gang of political fanatics who can't back up their beliefs with logical thought so they react by becoming angry and abusive.
After a very long time of studying related subjects, dealing with the practical side of these issues and considering the arguments against the broader pattern of human history and behaviour, I'm supposed
to " change my mind and admit I'm talking bollocks ", on the say so of a few kids who wouldn't know an SLR from a banjo or name 10 American Revolutionaries without googling it.
Well, guess what ? I don't have to go along with your views because I think they're wrong and foolish, and I'm afraid that I don't much care if you get angry about that or whether my opinion is popular with your little message board clique. I've used this quote here before , but it says it all - " Those who give up their Liberty for security will deserve neither and end up losing both "
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Do you think anyone reads all that? :hehe:
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CardiffIrish2
What a steaming pile of horse shit.
You repeatedly come out with this sort of thing. I very much doubt that you go around saying stuff like this to people's faces, and I wish you'd try to avoid this tendency to personal abuse just because it's a message board
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rudy gestede
Do you think anyone reads all that? :hehe:
I expect so, but that's up to them isn't it ?
Pity some people here didn't read more stuff before they started redesigning the world really.
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
20 hours a day ?
No son , I just turn it on occasionally if I sit down to rest my sciatica.
I've put a view here which is perfectly rational and which is quite consistent with the motives and beliefs of the Founding Fathers and countless millions of Americans and others who consider individual rights more important than the promises of tyrants to protect people.
These promises are never kept, by the way, and if decent men were disarmed criminals and lunatics would still get guns to commit atrocities .
That's almost by the way though. The more pressing issue here is that we've got a gang of political fanatics who can't back up their beliefs with logical thought so they react by becoming angry and abusive.
After a very long time of studying related subjects, dealing with the practical side of these issues and considering the arguments against the broader pattern of human history and behaviour, I'm supposed
to " change my mind and admit I'm talking bollocks ", on the say so of a few kids who wouldn't know an SLR from a banjo or name 10 American Revolutionaries without googling it.
Well, guess what ? I don't have to go along with your views because I think they're wrong and foolish, and I'm afraid that I don't much care if you get angry about that or whether my opinion is popular with your little message board clique. I've used this quote here before , but it says it all - " Those who give up their Liberty for security will deserve neither and end up losing both "
You are acting like nowhere in the world has ever successfully introduced gun control measures.
You can't criticise people for being entrenched when your own position is that even if gun control measures reduced gun crime, you still wouldn't support them. In addition to this you purposefully conflate gun control with banning guns and knowingly mislead about criminals and 'mentally ill' being able to purchase firearms legally, in short you know yourself that there is loads that the American administration could do, short of banning guns, that would go some way to reducing the chances of innocent people dying. Not exactly covering yourself in glory, and then when someone points this hypocrisy out you belittle them whilst also somehow playing the victim.
If I have been manipulated into wanting less American children murdered then so be it, at the very least it is a defensible position.
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
You are acting like nowhere in the world has ever successfully introduced gun control measures.
You can't criticise people for being entrenched when your own position is that even if gun control measures reduced gun crime, you still wouldn't support them. In addition to this you purposefully conflate gun control with banning guns and knowingly mislead about criminals and 'mentally ill' being able to purchase firearms legally, in short you know yourself that there is loads that the American administration could do, short of banning guns, that would go some way to reducing the chances of innocent people dying. Not exactly covering yourself in glory, and then when someone points this hypocrisy out you belittle them whilst also somehow playing the victim.
If I have been manipulated into wanting less American children murdered then so be it, at the very least it is a defensible position.
Nowhere in the world has the citizen retained the whip hand over government except the USA.
I don't think I conflated gun control with banning guns, in fact I said that you could introduce some regulations if you wanted to without breaking the 2nd amendment and pointed out that felons and lunatics are already banned from having guns. I also said that this would be impossible to enforce in the real world because there are so many guns already in circulation.
You say I misled or attempted to mislead about felons and lunatics , but in fact you rather make the point for me that this existing legislation is hard or impossible to enforce.
I dont accept that my view is hypocritical and I certainly haven't belittled anyone by standing up to them when they attempted to do exactly that to me.
In considering the idea of fewer American children being murdered, and even if we thought that would work , ( which it wouldn't ), surely we must consider the other effects of what we're doing ?
America is an armed society in which people regard the right to defend themselves against assaults or tyrany as fundamental.
There are already hundreds of millions of guns in circulation and criminals won't hand theirs in because you make it illegal.
There are many many remote locations where the police can't come and protect you from armed attack, bears or mountain lions, or home invasion, so they need their guns.
There's a constitutional duty to take up arms against a tyrannical government or foreign invasion, and this is the only area where banning private guns would be effective, which is exactly why those who insist upon wars every few years for their personal enrichment are pushing it so hard.
-
1 Attachment(s)
Re: Another mass shooting
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Heisenberg
This ^^^^^^^^
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jeepster
This ^^^^^^^^
that would be like shooting fish in a barrel.
-
Re: Another mass shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ToTaL ITK
that would be like shooting fish in a barrel.
:hehe:
-
Re: Another mass shooting
-
Re: Another mass shooting
