COVID - Something has to change

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Originally Posted by lardy

I did say that. It was in response to you saying that if there's a vaccine at Christmas " I’d be happy to sit in for 3 months if it was nailed on this would end once and for all."

So happy to see who's right. Will it end once and for all with the vaccine, or will it only be the beginning of the end?

Place your bets.

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It'll be the beginning because it'll take months if not years for everybody to get vaccinated

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Hang on a sec, I said that Theresa May and David Cameron would not have done things Johnson did do and has done. Yes, I come at things from a certain slant politically, but what party Johnson is in is immaterial in many ways - his personality and character is ill suited to the position we find ourselves in.

One other thing, I made my reply to what was little more than "ah but what if it had been Labour" style message which, when you think about it, only goes to show how poor this Government has been in handling the virus - using what iffery is usually a sign of an argument being lost or someone who cannot think of anything positive to say about their side.

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You also said you didn't blame people for voting for the Government. I'm not sure when you became the person who thought they had the right to apportion blame but, while your politics certainly are in the majority on this message board they most certainly are not in the country as a whole. You also acknowledged you come from things from a certain slant politically. If that's what you want to call it then fine but it seems like a very steep incline to me.

I agree with you about Johnson as my post quoted in your message confirms.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

It definitely worked last time, we reduced the number of deaths from over 1000 a day to zero and prevented the NHS from collapse!

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You do realise that hospitals stopped treatment for pretty much everything except Coronavirus and life-threatening emergencies during lockdown? I wouldn't describe that as a success.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

You also said you didn't blame people for voting for the Government. I'm not sure when you became the person who thought they had the right to apportion blame but, while your politics certainly are in the majority on this message board they most certainly are not in the country as a whole. You also acknowledged you come from things from a certain slant politically. If that's what you want to call it then fine but it seems like a very steep incline to me.

I agree with you about Johnson as my post quoted in your message confirms.

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I said I don't blame people for voting for this Government, how is that apportioning blame?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I said I don't blame people for voting for this Government, how is that apportioning blame?

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I suggest you read what you said. My point is that I don't know what gave you the right to "blame" who or what people vote for. We better leave it there before things get silly. Let's agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by LeningradCowboy

You do realise that hospitals stopped treatment for pretty much everything except Coronavirus and life-threatening emergencies during lockdown? I wouldn't describe that as a success.

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I hope you realize that it was precisely because of lockdown that the flood of hospitalisations was stemmed enabling physicians to treat the Covid cases and then return to dealing with other emergencies. That sounds a success to me.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

I hope you realize that it was precisely because of lockdown that the flood of hospitalisations was stemmed enabling physicians to treat the Covid cases and then return to dealing with other emergencies. That sounds a success to me.

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I suppose you would consider lockdown a success if you think it's more important to prevent people from dying due to Covid than to prevent them from dying due to anything else.

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Originally Posted by LeningradCowboy

I suppose you would consider lockdown a success if you think it's more important to prevent people from dying due to Covid than to prevent them from dying due to anything else.

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Of course

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Originally Posted by Vindec

I suggest you read what you said. My point is that I don't know what gave you the right to "blame" who or what people vote for. We better leave it there before things get silly. Let's agree to disagree.

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Well if you think that when people say they don't blame someone for a situation that has arisen they are, in fact, apportioning blame, then it definitely is best we agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Harry Paget Flashman

I'm not sure where you have the notion that I'm clever from.

I'm simply aware that the Westminster response to the pandemic was too little, too late. It has seen numerous lies; blame shifting; lack of principles; the wasting of money; unnecessary deaths and we are seemingly back at stage one seven months down the line with a half baked system that isn't working.

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The point is that it is easy to say this or that was/is wrong and to suggest others could have done it better when you know there is absolutely no danger of the 'others' referred to ever having to prove you right.
I would put a penny to the pound that all those who wanted to win the election said a silent prayer of thanks that they didn't when this shit storm broke.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Again your support for your party is admirable.

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Why do all the labour people on this board automatically assume that anyone who might disagree with them is a conservative supporter.

you have made this comment just because IU'm not shouting that labour would have done better. But just remember that if labour had won the election it would be Jeremy who would be PM now and we have seen and read that he was very bad at making any important decisions and actively avoided having to do so. That would have gone down well in the last 9 months.
If you think he would have done better I would hate to live in your definition of 'better'.

I think the whole country would benefit greatly if all the opinionated people who populate this board were running things because they collectively clearly know better than all the politicians and scientists and doctors who are running it.

true xsnaggle seems to be a trend on here
there are lots of politics out there which are neither labour and tory which offer much more hope than the mainstream

I feel sorry for you lot in blighty...led by boris bumble, cant make his thick mind up.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

I think the whole country would benefit greatly if all the opinionated people who populate this board were running things because they collectively clearly know better than all the politicians and scientists and doctors who are running it.

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I don't see many people disagreeing with the scientists and doctors to be fair. Also it's adorable how you can talk about "the opinionated people who populate this board" as if you're not one of them :hehe:

Everybody has opinions, that’s what makes us different isn’t it? Whether they are correct or if anyone agrees with them is another matter entirely. You only have to comment on ccfc matches to see how people’s opinions can differ on the same game, let alone a pandemic. As long as a person can admit when they got it wrong, they are ok with me.

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Originally Posted by delmbox

I don't see many people disagreeing with the scientists and doctors to be fair. Also it's adorable how you can talk about "the opinionated people who populate this board" as if you're not one of them :hehe:

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I have opinions as we all do but I'm not opinionated. there is a difference.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

I have opinions as we all do but I'm not opinionated. there is a difference.

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amazing :hehe: :hehe:

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Originally Posted by delmbox

amazing :hehe: :hehe:

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well deflected Darling.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

well deflected Darling.

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Sorry I was just stunned and delighted at your lack of self awareness :yikes:

Boris and his government can't win whatever they do. It's been a mess-up from the start, but that's exactly because they have tried to keep everyone happy. Sadly, that doesn't work, but if they had instead go one way or the other (total and complete lockdown OR just ride it out) they would have been hammered.

The thing is, not making that definite decision, and instead, bumbling along jumping from one tack to another, has made things worse. If we'd had total lockdown, we might have been out of it by now, but we'd have no business, no food, and no jobs. Riding it out would have meant normal life, but a lot more deaths. The government chose to carry out a mixture of the two, but that doesn't really work either. But, in reality, EVERYONE, of ANY PARTY, would have done exactly the same thing. They would have opted for the path that causes the least damage to both health and economy.

So what to do? Who knows? The damage is done now, so it looks like a case of occasional lockdowns, while science searches for a vaccine.

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Originally Posted by delmbox

Sorry I was just stunned and delighted at your lack of self awareness :yikes:

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As you do not know me or anything about me you can not have any notion of the level of my self awareness.

But like some others on here you do like to slip in these comments to make yourself look clever. But always remember, I don't give a toss about you or what you think,

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

As you do not know me or anything about me you can not have any notion of the level of my self awareness.

But like some others on here you do like to slip in these comments to make yourself look clever. But always remember, I don't give a toss about you or what you think,

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So delmbox can't suggest that you lack self awareness because he doesn't know you, but you can call other people on here, that you also don't know, opinionated.

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Originally Posted by lardy

So delmbox can't suggest that you lack self awareness because he doesn't know you, but you can call other people on here, that you also don't know, opinionated.

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I can call them anything, its just a message board, and I think some are opinionated to the degree that it blinds them to everything else, but then, it's just my opinion. you may disgree.
But actually he didn't suggest anything, he stated it as a fact, which you may think shows a level of opinionation (Is that a word? lol) which refuses to accept that he could possibly be wrong. But then again, you may not think that. It depends on your opinion.

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Originally Posted by delmbox

It'll be the beginning because it'll take months if not years for everybody to get vaccinated

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"everybody" ? I'm not taking any vaccine with barely a 3 month pathology

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

I think the whole country would benefit greatly if all the opinionated people who populate this board were running things because they collectively clearly know better than all the politicians and scientists and doctors who are running it.

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The thoughts of a Havard professor of the evolution and epidemiology of infectious disease. There's no way I would consider myself as knowing more about the virus than him;-

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...st-trace-virus

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Originally Posted by tforturton

Boris and his government can't win whatever they do. It's been a mess-up from the start, but that's exactly because they have tried to keep everyone happy. Sadly, that doesn't work, but if they had instead go one way or the other (total and complete lockdown OR just ride it out) they would have been hammered.

The thing is, not making that definite decision, and instead, bumbling along jumping from one tack to another, has made things worse. If we'd had total lockdown, we might have been out of it by now, but we'd have no business, no food, and no jobs. Riding it out would have meant normal life, but a lot more deaths. The government chose to carry out a mixture of the two, but that doesn't really work either. But, in reality, EVERYONE, of ANY PARTY, would have done exactly the same thing. They would have opted for the path that causes the least damage to both health and economy.

So what to do? Who knows? The damage is done now, so it looks like a case of occasional lockdowns, while science searches for a vaccine.

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Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

First we thought the virus was more deadly it probably is so lockdown was right, then we thought that opening up the country in segments would keep the virus in circulation, with a vaccine on it's way.

Now it looks like there's no vaccine and no prospect of herd immunity soon due to reinfections within 3 months.

The Government has a choice with no right answer. Lives now or lives in the future.

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

"everybody" ? I'm not taking any vaccine with barely a 3 month pathology

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I wouldn't and I assume most under 55 would be the same

Also if you think anyone would have stayed in lockdown over summer you overestimate the general public.

There would have been garden parties galore anyway.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

The thoughts of a Havard professor of the evolution and epidemiology of infectious disease. There's no way I would consider myself as knowing more about the virus than him;-

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...st-trace-virus

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Does your reply mean that you included yourself in my comment about some on here who know better?
But I'm sure whatever he says we could search and find someone who says different.

And another thought of course, if he was saying everything the British Government has done is correct then he wouldn't be being quoted in the Guardian would he? :hehe.

PS I didn't bother to read it, the fact that you felt the need to post it and respond to me comment was enough for me. :-)

It's a good article but putting so much faith in test and trace doesn't seem to be working. Yes the UK is a shambles in that regard but when only 11% of those contacted by test and trace workers comply with the isolation requirements you have to wonder whether reliance on the arrangements is over played.

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Originally Posted by tforturton

Boris and his government can't win whatever they do. It's been a mess-up from the start, but that's exactly because they have tried to keep everyone happy. Sadly, that doesn't work, but if they had instead go one way or the other (total and complete lockdown OR just ride it out) they would have been hammered.

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But it was always going to be a mess, the world was / still is learning about this virus, different countries are going about it different ways so as you said, who do we follow

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Originally Posted by Vindec

It's a good article but putting so much faith in test and trace doesn't seem to be working. Yes the UK is a shambles in that regard but when only 11% of those contacted by test and trace workers comply with the isolation requirements you have to wonder whether reliance on the arrangements is over played.

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This link was omitted from my previous post:

https://www.ft.com/content/d214ef31-...f-17c7057ab999

Briefly the article said this:


https://www.ft.com/content/d214ef31-...f-17c7057ab999

Only 11 per cent of people in the UK in contact with someone who has tested positive for Covid-19 are quarantining, and just 18 per cent of those who develop symptoms are self-isolating, according to new research from King’s College London.

The study, which paints the first clear picture of how many people are following the government’s virus guidelines, was published as daily infection cases in the UK reached a record 6,634.

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Originally Posted by blue matt

But it was always going to be a mess, the world was / still is learning about this virus, different countries are going about it different ways so as you said, who do we follow

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Spot on. Countries are experiencing different rates of infection and everyone is struggling to identify a way forward. Some are saying we are doing worse than others but I'm unsure whether that is totally relevant. Even in the UK rates of infection differ. Indeed 50% of Wales is in lockdown which is the equivalent of 28000 in England. Wales seem to have it worse but I wouldn't necessarily say this is the fault of anyone and you can't blame test and trace because only 11% of those asked to isolate comply. No country has the solution other than complete lockdown and that has an adverse affect on the economy. We have no option other than to let matters run their course, lockdowning when asked to do so and simply comply with actions we are required to take.

I think it is die-hard labour supporters, momentum probably, who are going out intent on catching the disease and then deliberately not self isolating and deliberately not self quarantining just to make the Government's strategy seem wrong.

You have to admire their loyalty, so selflessly risking themselves for the cause!

The failure to sack Cummings was such a key moment. Johnson should have condemned what he had done and hammered home the importance of sticking by the rules.

What we had was a bunch of incompetents squirming and sticking up for him.

History wont be kind to this lot and that will be a key moment in this crisis.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

I think it is die-hard labour supporters, momentum probably, who are going out intent on catching the disease and then deliberately not self isolating and deliberately not self quarantining just to make the Government's strategy seem wrong.

You have to admire their loyalty, so selflessly risking themselves for the cause!

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What strategy?

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Originally Posted by tforturton

Boris and his government can't win whatever they do. It's been a mess-up from the start, but that's exactly because they have tried to keep everyone happy. Sadly, that doesn't work, but if they had instead go one way or the other (total and complete lockdown OR just ride it out) they would have been hammered.

The thing is, not making that definite decision, and instead, bumbling along jumping from one tack to another, has made things worse. If we'd had total lockdown, we might have been out of it by now, but we'd have no business, no food, and no jobs. Riding it out would have meant normal life, but a lot more deaths. The government chose to carry out a mixture of the two, but that doesn't really work either. But, in reality, EVERYONE, of ANY PARTY, would have done exactly the same thing. They would have opted for the path that causes the least damage to both health and economy.

So what to do? Who knows? The damage is done now, so it looks like a case of occasional lockdowns, while science searches for a vaccine.

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No government could find a course through Covid that kept everyone happy if that's what you mean by 'can't win', but this government and Prime Minister has been an international outlier in its' ineptitude and incoherence.

The 'jumping from one tack to another' was not part of a calculated balancing act between health and economic concerns - but the result of confusion, lack of leadership and strategy, and making up policy off the cuff on a daily basis. The contradictory and confusing messages to the public - on some days we had three or more Cabinet ministers saying totally different things - together with symbolic disasters like the Cummings road trip - were totally avoidable.

Any conceivable alternative government (Labour or even one led by Theresa May) would have had a very hard job on their hands, but they would be unlikely to cock it up as badly at this lot!

A

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Does your reply mean that you included yourself in my comment about some on here who know better?
But I'm sure whatever he says we could search and find someone who says different.

And another thought of course, if he was saying everything the British Government has done is correct then he wouldn't be being quoted in the Guardian would he? :hehe.

PS I didn't bother to read it, the fact that you felt the need to post it and respond to me comment was enough for me. :-)

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Your pathetic wind up attempt PS says it all really doesn't it and I see the Havard professor's piece doesn't count for anything because it's in the Guardian.

Here's what I actually think about the current situation.

Remember when we were pitying Spain and Italy back in February and early March and explaining their problems away by saying they were more tactile than us - Spain and Italy had it really bad in early spring, but we ended up having it worse. Spain's Government is left leaning, while Italy's is the sort of right wing, nationalist, libertarian administration that I'm instinctively against.

I should be all in favour of Spain and completely against Italy using the guidelines that have taken over on here, but a look at the figures for both countries in recent weeks show that Italy have handled the "second wave" better than the Spaniards have.

Italy appear to have learned lessons from earlier in the year and acted upon that, whereas it seems debatable as to whether Spain have. It's not just a question of left and right, general competence appears to be more important than politics when it comes to tackling Covid.

Mind you, I would say that in the U.K. political dogma seems to be overriding factor in outsourcing much of the test and trace programme to private companies when there were specialist local units already in place in the public sector. However, generally speaking, it is competence that seems to be more important and it's hard to find many now who would argue that the Uk Government are dealing and have dealt with Covid competently - would people be more prepared to stick to the self isolating rules if there was a Government in power that they had more trust in and respect for as far as the virus is concerned?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

A

Your pathetic wind up attempt PS says it all really doesn't it and I see the Havard professor's piece doesn't count for anything because it's in the Guardian.

Here's what I actually think about the current situation.

Remember when we were pitying Spain and Italy back in February and early March and explaining their problems away by saying they were more tactile than us - Spain and Italy had it really bad in early spring, but we ended up having it worse. Spain's Government is left leaning, while Italy's is the sort of right wing, nationalist, libertarian administration that I'm instinctively against.

I should be all in favour of Spain and completely against Italy using the guidelines that have taken over on here, but a look at the figures for both countries in recent weeks show that Italy have handled the "second wave" better than the Spaniards have.

Italy appear to have learned lessons from earlier in the year and acted upon that, whereas it seems debatable as to whether Spain have. It's not just a question of left and right, general competence appears to be more important than politics when it comes to tackling Covid.

Mind you, I would say that political dogma seems to be overriding factor in outsourcing much of the test and trace programme out to private companies when there were specialist local units already in place in the public sector. However, generally speaking, it is competence that seems to be more important and it's hard to find many now who would argue that the Uk Government are dealing and have dealt with Covid competently - would people be more prepared to stick to the self isolating rules if there was a Government in power that they had more trust in and respect for as far as the virus is concerned?

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I got back from Italy yesterday after 11 days away.

National, regional and local government (of most political types - although not some right wing populist groupings) have consistently pushed a public health message after the disaster of March/April in the north of the country. That is without the level of wage support that was in place in the UK for the last 6 months. People generally wear masks and socially distance. There are temperature checks at most restaurants and some shops. They have had a hard lock-down and do not want to throw away that sacrifice through stupidity or selfishness. They have not had the flip-flops of UK policy, and the governments (national, regional and local) have not mangled or undermined their own messages.

It feels much safer (risk of catching Covid or transmitting it) than the UK and more serious about the risks.

There was some understandable anger that Johnson claimed the Italian and German rates of infection - and compliance with anti-Covid rules - was because they had fascist governments almost a century ago and so are more likely to behave than 'freedom loving Brits'. They just have consistent, clear leadership and simple rules. Italians are not culturally rule lovers - just watch them drive with one hand on their phone and the other holding a drink or a cig, and steering with their knees - but at least they do that in a mask!