His tactical naivety found out at last by a better manager.
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His tactical naivety found out at last by a better manager.
On the bright side, when he leaves he'll probably end up the next Swansea manager after another stint of poor punditry on Sky.
Shut up you ****ing idiot
behave you twonk
I was surprised that Vokes didn't start. We needed his physicality against a tough Irish defence. Nothing against Robson-Kanu whatsoever, but I'd have started Hal in Georgia and Vokes tonight. Tonight was always going to be a battle and we thought we could play football through that. We failed spectacularly.Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy corbyn
Also, I can't work out why he replaced Allen with Jonny Williams. Again, nothing against Jonniesta, but I'd have put Dave Edwards on to give us more meat in the midfield, which would have allowed Aaron Ramsey to have a more forward role. Maybe Coleman was worried about Ledley lasting 90 minutes, but we needed grit and graft tonight, more than fancy football, which the Irish kept clattering into row Z.
What tactical naivety was that?Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy corbyn
Was it 4 at the back? Starting with Robson-Kanu then bringing Vokes on when any space disappeared? Watching Joe Allen taken out and having to find the best midfield replacement (who would you have used?)? Bringing Woodburn on mid way through the second half?
Overall I think Coleman has become better and better tactically, and grown as a manager into the best we have had for generations. He has done with Wales what Warnock did with Cardiff. Not world class, but necessary, usually effective and very impressive.
Everything against Jonniesta.
Some have an idealised vision of how great he is whilst ignoring the fact that the reality is he's nowhere near as good as people claim. It's like those who claim Daehli was some sort of Messi like genius when with us, cognitive dissonence.
Williams is a player who had a lot of potential which he never achieved, a number of injuries which set his career back and right now loaned out from a woeful Palace squad, struggling in a poor Sunderland side. I thought we'd progressed beyond using league one level players.
In a physical battle, Williams would be as much use as taking on a platoon armed with with machine guns armed only with a sword. A sword made of balloons.
Thanks for that! I've needed something to make me smile since the end of the game. :thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life
The reason the space disappeared was because they scored. We knew we needed the first goal. I think, as I said to others before the game on Sunday, that Vokes was more likely to cause problems because of his physicality. Had we got the first goal, Robson-Kanu would have been an ideal substitute to exploit gaps that Ireland would have needed to leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
I do think Coleman has taken us as far as possible and think it's time for a fresh start he will always be remembered for France
HRK just isn't good enough at international level - or indeed at Prem level. Vokes is a better player all round. We desparately need a quality striker to emerge.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
Edwards for Allen, not Williams. Hell even Woodburn at that point may have made more sense.
Coleman may have got better but the fact is... he's never been all that. His Coventry side was woeful, hoofball that Warnock would have got upset by. John Beck would have loved it though. Let's not forget him getting a job in Cyprus, proclaiming that "no chairman in Britain wanted to play the way he wanted teams to play".
The reality is... Coleman came in, changed things from Speed, had a poor start. Started setting the side out the way Speed had and the results improved. He's had all the great work Speed did along with a golden generation of youngsters ( lacking a striker ). Put Coleman in at a Prem club now and let's see how long till he gets fired.
I know that's why the space disappeared. Seems to me it made more sense to start with Kanu when Ireland had to try to score (and he had a very good attempt well saved) and when there would be more chance to get in behind, and when the Irish shut up shop Vokes' powerhouse approach was needed more. All about opinions but I had no problem with Coleman's starting 11.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
Ireland shut up shop from the first minute, hence made more sense to have started with Vokes.
If we'd not have conceded stupidly ( and I thought the ball went out for a throw in ), space would have opened up as Ireland had to push forward looking to score.
Yes. We needed a battering ram, not pretty football. Whenever we tried to play that we were kicked off the park, helped by a ref who never clamped down on it, but seemed to penalise us at most opportunities in the first half.Quote:
Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life
My recollection was that he tried to carry on with the Gary Speed team and shape and lost a lot of games. He then decided to do things his own way and we started to get some success. Maybe I have misremembered.Quote:
Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life
Whatever, I think he has been a great manager for Wales, but his time is up and there will now be a change.
I don't buy into a lot of the 'golden generation' hype - Wales are clearly limited and lack depth - but I don't like the easy knocking that starts after a disappointing result like tonight.
Brilliant.Quote:
Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life
Still chuckling at that one.
Interesting that we're clearly limited when we might even still be top seeds for the next Euro qualifiers (perhaps doubtful after tonight). We're comfortably in the world's top 20 and much credit must go to Coleman for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
Tonight we got a few things wrong, Coleman included in my opinion. That happens. It's gutting when it happens in a game like this, but ultimately that's cost us.
We are not England. We don't lose and then start to blame each other and look to get rid of this player or that.
We stand together. Analyse the game yes, but don't lose your heads. Chin up lads, we will come back stronger.
Aren't we limited? Of course we are. We are picking from a pretty small pool of players compared to most of the teams around us in the rankings. Apart from Bale (and Allen and Ramsey as next tier players) we have a lack of depth and quality in depth offset by organisation and team spirit. Nothing wrong with that - and it can take a team a long way - but daft to pretend otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee
When Joe Allen went off what were the options? Williams or Edwards realistically.... or would you have brought on someone like David Brooks in that situation? Ledley has had a few games for Derby but is usually a 60-70 minute player these days. Ireland were even more limited (even without Bale) but found a way to steal the win.
I'm disappointed but still very proud of this team/squad and hopeful that we can improve in both quality and nous - and get better at qualifying for major tournaments in the future.
That's what I'm doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by surge
When Allen went off Dave Edwards was the only option. Someone to win the ball in the middle and feed our creative players, not drop Ramsey deeper and nullify him. Coleman has to realise that Ramsey isn't a defensively minded midfielder. Edwards never lets Wales down, not that I'm suggesting he's Joe Allen, but we needed grit and steel. Had Ledley needed to come off late on, then Williams could have replaced Ledley when legs were tiring.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
I don't see why thinking it might be better for Coleman to move is disrespectful.
He has been amazing. But we can definitely improve on certain aspects of play.
We failed in this group because we conceded late goals against Serbia and Georgia. We lost those games because we have ZERO ideas once we have got ourselves ahead. We just sit back, hold on and hope they don't score. We could easily have conceded against Moldova and Georgia as well.
A lot is made of clean sheets and being unbeaten but I feel it covers up the reality, which is, we teeter on the edge with one goal leads and I feel that in the next campaign we could fall foul of the same weaknesses if we don't address it. Also, being unbeaten is no good if all your picking up is draws. Which is what happened.
I think Coleman should go because I have seen no progression on the "sit back and hold on" philosophy. If we were able to get in someone who knows how to defend by attacking or counter-attacking we will be able to ease pressure on the back 4, limit chances, and potential create more at the other end.
I'm not saying, scrap Coleman's work, I'm saying it's time to build on his work.
I think when this team is at full strength we could do much better against some of these teams with some calculated tweaks and some ideas from an outsider.
Id love it if he stayed, but I suspect he’ll decide to go back to club management. Swansea probably
Will we come back stronger? Not sure I will ever see Wales in a major World Cup Finals in my lifetime.Quote:
Originally Posted by surge
We didn't lose those games. We only lost tonight. We have not done well this campaign because we've been too cautious. We should have gone out and battered them tonight from the off. Vokes is a quality if one dimensional player, he should have started today and by now we should have found a found a way to play to his strengths. It's what we needed tonight. We need to replace Ashley Williams too, he's ****ing shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divine Wright
Coleman in.
Anyone can be a genius with hindsight. We were outstanding until Allen went off. All his choices were logical tonight and before tonight. The stars aligned for Ireland who were no way worth four points over two games. Allen and Bale have been our two mercurial players over the past half decade. To lose both for this decisive game is plain horrendous luck. We are a group that thrives on pulling ourselves up out of adversity, so let's stick together.
Coleman in.
I think he'd go to Swansea as well. Jesus, I'd have him with us if/when NW goes. He's done Wales proud.
I do wish he'd sort his mouth out though. He's like a puffer fish mun...
Excellent post !!Quote:
Originally Posted by surge
Correct. Allen is irreplaceable and for what it's worth I thought Williams was one of our better players after he came on. Fact is Ireland got ahead because of a defensive cock up, not much Coleman could do about that. Without Bale we couldn't break them down and again it's not Coleman's fault our one world class player was out. Would Vokes really have made that much of a difference, or Edwards?Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue in the Face
This is comfortably the best Wales team in my life time and you've got to give Coleman some of the credit for that
Coleman will be offered an extended contract by the FAW but will hold out to see if he gets an offer from a Premiership or top Championship club. Martin O'Neil is the better manager but I not sure if he wants a full time job. Giggs will replace Coleman if he goes, that's my prediction.
Will he turn up for friendlies :hehe::hehe:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ianto13
A disappointing evening.
I do think O'Neil got the better of Coleman last night. That was about as perfect an away performance as he realistically could have got out of his squad.
They sat deep knowing we can't break teams down, particularly without the quality of Bale. I wonder if how defensive they set up actually surprised us given that they absolutely needed to win.
They knew late on if it was tight they would have opportunities themselves, earlier in the group we gave up sloppy goals and the same happened last night.
Fair play to them.
It's been an amazing few years and Coleman will rightly be classed as one of our best ever managers.
For me the whole campaign has been disappointing off the back of France, we really needed to push on from that and we have failed to do so.
I feel at times in all sports we are so used to defeat that we accept it all too easily. This wasn't good enough unfortunately. I do think Coleman will move on, think tonight we ran out of ideas, he is still young and would probably also like a crack at club football again.
All the best to him if that's the case, unless it's Swansea.
Do I think that McLean deliberately took out Allen, of course I do but hell it is football not shove ha'penny. I believe he just intended to rough him up a bit, the fact that he had to leave the field was a bonus. After Allen departed we just lost our shape. Ramsey dropping back was a tactical disaster. Up until then he was playing well, after Allen left the field he was ineffectual. Johnny Williams did not do too badly but we needed Ramsey up front.
With hindsight, playing Robson-Kanu ahead of Vokes was another big mistake. We needed Vokes' physicality against a very tough, no-nonsense Irish back four.
Quite a few of the players on duty last night have past their sell but dates, particularly Ashley Williams and most definitely Andy King. Who gets to replace them is a job for the next manager as Coleman has taken this team as far as he is able.
I confess that I am really gutted today as I was confident before the game and had hopes of first time visit to a World Cup. I guess I will just have to switch my support to Iceland now.
I think that Coleman has done his time, as much for his sake as well as Wales. 5 years is a long time in International football, he has achieved something great in his time, and the International team is in better shape for his work. Really at this point he has earned a decent club job.
I would hate to see Ryan Giggs get the job. He is not the sort of character i think would galvanise the team, he has always struck me as a selfish individual (which is great when you are a player, but not as good as when you are a manager). I don't really enjoy his insights as a pundit either.
Personally i would like to see someone come in from outside, to inject some fresh ideas into the squad, to work with what we have and to bring through the next generation. Use the time we have now to play some friendlies and to have a look at Woodburn, Ampadu and Brooks.
The reality is... Coleman came in, changed things from Speed, had a poor start. Started setting the side out the way Speed had and the results improved. He's had all the great work Speed did along with a golden generation of youngsters ( lacking a striker ). Put Coleman in at a Prem club now and let's see how long till he gets fired.
bang on fella iv never been a fan of Jack Coleman
"OUR NEIL" ! at least the delivery from corners and free kicks would improve :hehe:Quote:
Originally Posted by qccfc
PS:---- When was the last time we scored from a corner (headed goal) or a crossed free kick (again a headed goal) ????
Gareth Bale against Georgia home possibly. We are poor at the set piece, we are constantly hoping from the goals from outside the box (Lawrence vs Georgia, Woodburn against Austria), then there would be a game where you dont get that spectacular goal, and you make a mistake during the game and concede.Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUETIT
We are a long way from the days under Toshack, but now is the time to move on again in my opinion.
I dont think we can do it when we are dominating a game. We rely too much on counter attacking. I hate being favourites
I wish he just took a risk on woodburn or brooks. I didnt even know lawrence was on the field in the second half
then throws on a 17 year old. Desperate really wasnt it
I hope he stays though
I didnt even see the irish fans. I dont think we mixed much from what I saw.
Ireland are absolute shite though. Dreadful football
Sadly football was the loser last night as a dirty irish team and a weak ref managed to knock Wales out. Randolph time wasting was shocking and he should have received a booking long before he did.
As for Wales I dont understand while Vokes didnt start, we needed a target man as an option to just passing across the park and why play 4 central midfielders Ramsey, Allen, Ledley and King. How many times did the full backs put in a ball and there was no one back post. I said before the match that both Vokes and Robson-Kanu should have started with King on the bench as Ireland were always going to sit back and hope to score on the counter.
I think Coleman was improved this campaign and his change to 4 at the back for the Austria game was the right decision, but his substitutions are a bit predictable.
You chuckle, I'm still nodding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy the Jock