The truth about Matt Hancock

An interesting read.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...-matt-hancock/

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

An interesting read.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...-matt-hancock/

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Hancock, Whitty and Johnson knew full well that non-medical face masks do very little to prevent transmission of the virus. People were made to wear them anyway because Dominic Cummings was fixated with them; because Nicola Sturgeon liked them; and above all because they were symbolic of the public health emergency.

As I argued at the time

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Originally Posted by TWGL1

Hancock, Whitty and Johnson knew full well that non-medical face masks do very little to prevent transmission of the virus. People were made to wear them anyway because Dominic Cummings was fixated with them; because Nicola Sturgeon liked them; and above all because they were symbolic of the public health emergency.

As I argued at the time

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If I could smell the Mrs' perfume with one on, I figured the same. People in restaurants taking off their masks to eat, putting back on to stand up or go the toilet. I - along with around 5% perhaps on here - spent 2 years saying we were being told bollocks.

My guess is Isabel Oakeshott didn't get anywhere near reviewing any of the juicy stuff.

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

If I could smell the Mrs' perfume with one on, I figured the same. People in restaurants taking off their masks to eat, putting back on to stand up or go the toilet. I - along with around 5% perhaps on here - spent 2 years saying we were being told bollocks.

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Apologies for breaking into this group hug.

In a few strides it seems to have leapt from the co-authored opinions and musings of Hancock and Oakeshott, to an extracted bit about non-medical masks to your conclusion that medical guidance was bollocks.

Here is the wiki on Covid face masks. Includes links to the multiplicity of studies on mask effectiveness, which vary by type but all offer a level of protection, particularly in indoor settings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_m...ID-19_pandemic

Remarkably almost every country on the planet where Covid has had a footprint reached the conclusion that mask wearing had a key role to play in Covid prevention, particularly when stricter lockdown measures were lifted. There are arguments around the fringes on whether some of the measures introduced were over cautious and politically driven.

However to see this as some kind of vindication that you and your small cohort are somehow vindicated verses the wealth of expert guidance and medical studies is frankly for the birds.

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Originally Posted by TWGL1

Hancock, Whitty and Johnson knew full well that non-medical face masks do very little to prevent transmission of the virus. People were made to wear them anyway because Dominic Cummings was fixated with them; because Nicola Sturgeon liked them; and above all because they were symbolic of the public health emergency.

As I argued at the time

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And the reason for masks being worn in South Korea, Norway, Portugal, the USA, Egypt, etc?

I didn’t think Sturgeon and Cummings had that much influence on global decisions.

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Apologies for breaking into this group hug.

In a few strides it seems to have leapt from the co-authored opinions and musings of Hancock and Oakeshott, to an extracted bit about non-medical masks to your conclusion that medical guidance was bollocks.

Here is the wiki on Covid face masks. Includes links to the multiplicity of studies on mask effectiveness, which vary by type but all offer a level of protection, particularly in indoor settings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_m...ID-19_pandemic

Remarkably almost every country on the planet where Covid has had a footprint reached the conclusion that mask wearing had a key role to play in Covid prevention, particularly when stricter lockdown measures were lifted. There are arguments around the fringes on whether some of the measures introduced were over cautious and politically driven.

However to see this as some kind of vindication that you and your small cohort are somehow vindicated verses the wealth of expert guidance and medical studies is frankly for the birds.

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100% true, I read it on Twitter a few months ago.

So vaccines were wrong, lockdowns were wrong, and masks were wrong.

What was the right way to deal with covid?

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Apologies for breaking into this group hug.

In a few strides it seems to have leapt from the co-authored opinions and musings of Hancock and Oakeshott, to an extracted bit about non-medical masks to your conclusion that medical guidance was bollocks.

Here is the wiki on Covid face masks. Includes links to the multiplicity of studies on mask effectiveness, which vary by type but all offer a level of protection, particularly in indoor settings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_m...ID-19_pandemic

Remarkably almost every country on the planet where Covid has had a footprint reached the conclusion that mask wearing had a key role to play in Covid prevention, particularly when stricter lockdown measures were lifted. There are arguments around the fringes on whether some of the measures introduced were over cautious and politically driven.

However to see this as some kind of vindication that you and your small cohort are somehow vindicated verses the wealth of expert guidance and medical studies is frankly for the birds.

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As I said , the home made cartoon , non medical ones is what I’m taking about. Did you actually read the article ?

This country paid a catastrophic price for what I see as a reckless overreaction to a disease that was only life-threatening to a small number of people who could have been protected without imprisoning the entire population.

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Originally Posted by lardy

So vaccines were wrong, lockdowns were wrong, and masks were wrong.

What was the right way to deal with covid?

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Let the bodies pile high

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Originally Posted by superfeathers

Let the bodies pile high

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Like in care homes ?

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Originally Posted by TWGL1

As I said , the home made cartoon , non medical ones is what I’m taking about. Did you actually read the article ?

This country paid a catastrophic price for what I see as a reckless overreaction to a disease that was only life-threatening to a small number of people who could have been protected without imprisoning the entire population.

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Yep read it.

It seems to restate the known fact that masks helped lift lockdowns. That after those restrictions were lifted all masks helped prevent the spread of Covid compared with letting people wander around without them. Bizarely non-medical masks were less effective than medical ones.

Still, in a different universe where no rational nation state decided to go, there was an option where the "enlightened libertarians" it was possible to create an age and infirm apartheid state. Those weak and infirm would live a bit like house arrest, potentially having to show proof of age to the Covid police if they were suspected of breaking restrictions.

Except that the friends and relatives of those who were free to circulate because the virus was less likely to kill them might pop in to see the vulnerable now and again.

Still, in your head that dystopian world is far less troublesome than the solutions the Western World came up with.

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Yep read it.

It seems to restate the known fact that masks helped lift lockdowns. That after those restrictions were lifted all masks helped prevent the spread of Covid compared with letting people wander around without them. Bizarely non-medical masks were less effective than medical ones.

Still, in a different universe where no rational nation state decided to go, there was an option where the "enlightened libertarians" it was possible to create an age and infirm apartheid state. Those weak and infirm would live a bit like house arrest, potentially having to show proof of age to the Covid police if they were suspected of breaking restrictions.

Except that the friends and relatives of those who were free to circulate because the virus was less likely to kill them might pop in to see the vulnerable now and again.

Still, in your head that dystopian world is far less troublesome than the solutions the Western World came up with.

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I think anybody who cared about elderly friends and relatives would have kept well away from them (the weak and vulnerable ) or mitigated together their own risk assessments (as they should have been allowed to). It’s worth noting that according to reports, the virus was around about six months before any intervention and the “within 28 days of a positive test” was a master stroke for compliance.

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Originally Posted by TWGL1

I think anybody who cared about elderly friends and relatives would have kept well away from them (the weak and vulnerable ) or mitigated together their own risk assessments (as they should have been allowed to).

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What age would have you drawn the line when the virus first went...well viral..for the people who needed to be isolated? What would all the others be able to do freely in this world in your head?

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Originally Posted by lardy

So vaccines were wrong, lockdowns were wrong, and masks were wrong.

What was the right way to deal with covid?

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The gifted and talented have so far offered avoid and isolate old people, which I seem to remember did happen, and still countries around the world were facing a fatal shortage of ventilators around May 2020.

So maybe a bit more was needed?

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Originally Posted by lardy

The gifted and talented have so far offered avoid and isolate old people, which I seem to remember did happen, and still countries around the world were facing a fatal shortage of ventilators around May 2020.

So maybe a bit more was needed?

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I think it was established early on that ventilators did more harm than good to the weak and frail.

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Originally Posted by TWGL1

I think it was established early on that ventilators did more harm than good to the weak and frail.

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And what about people who were not weak and frail, but would otherwise die without a ventilator. Do you think it was a mistake to use it for them?

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Originally Posted by lardy

And what about people who were not weak and frail, but would otherwise die without a ventilator. Do you think it was a mistake to use it for them?

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These articles may be of use

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2020...id-19-patients

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/c...-a9458541.html

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Originally Posted by TWGL1

These articles may be of use

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2020...id-19-patients

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/c...-a9458541.html

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So the medical community quickly learned how to use ventilators more effectively and disseminated the knowledge globally to save lives? That's great!

Or are you saying that ventilators are a bad thing? In which case, my question will be:

If vaccines were wrong, lockdowns were wrong, ventilators were wrong, and masks were wrong, what was the right way to deal with covid?

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Originally Posted by lardy

So the medical community quickly learned how to use ventilators more effectively and disseminated the knowledge globally to save lives? That's great!

Or are you saying that ventilators are a bad thing? In which case, my question will be:

If vaccines were wrong, lockdowns were wrong, ventilators were wrong, and masks were wrong, what was the right way to deal with covid?

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I think the subject has already been covered in earlier posts.

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Originally Posted by TWGL1

I think the subject has already been covered in earlier posts.

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No, it never has been. There's been lots of comments that masks don't work, lockdowns don't work, and so on. Comments from you, as well as others.

My question is what do you think should have been done instead of those things? I can't help but notice you're refusing to answer

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Originally Posted by lardy

No, it never has been. There's been lots of comments that masks don't work, lockdowns don't work, and so on. Comments from you, as well as others.

My question is what do you think should have been done instead of those things? I can't help but notice you're refusing to answer

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I would have probably followed Sweden’s pathway and also allowed more social responsibility.

The WFH is a good thing that’s come out of it.

I would also would have preferred a more balanced media viewpoint and allowed people who had different views to be heard and would have liked the law enforcement agencies to prosecute casual discrimination that was prevalent towards people with a different opinion.

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Originally Posted by TWGL1

I would have probably followed Sweden’s pathway and also allowed more social responsibility.

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The same Sweden who’s Covid death rate is 1.6x higher than Finland and 2.5x higher than Norway? Their 2 immediate neighbours and most comparable countries.

The masks that most of us seemed to be wearing in the UK wouldn't have permitted us to use public transport in Germany.
I wasn't allowed entry to a bus as a result and had to upgrade.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

The masks that most of us seemed to be wearing in the UK wouldn't have permitted us to use public transport in Germany.
I wasn't allowed entry to a bus as a result and had to upgrade.

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You can thank Nicola Sturgeon for that :shrug:

Sweden had a full vaccination programme with boosters, mask recommendations in public places, emergency pandemic laws, travel restrictions from overseas, etc.

They did pretty much the same as everyone else, just on a smaller scale. Interestingly, the government started an independent commission (Corona Commission) who concluded that they mostly failed to protect the elderly and tougher measures should have been brought in earlier in the pandemic.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Sweden had a full vaccination programme with boosters, mask recommendations in public places, emergency pandemic laws, travel restrictions from overseas, etc.

They did pretty much the same as everyone else, just on a smaller scale. Interestingly, the government started an independent commission (Corona Commission) who concluded that they mostly failed to protect the elderly and tougher measures should have been brought in earlier in the pandemic.

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Between you and Kev you seem to be saying that by early 2021 Sweden had introduced comparable or stricter measures than other parts of Europe but by then around 10 times as many Swedes by head of population died compared with their Norwegian neighbours. Still what do you boys know compared with the gifted 5%

So to follow your thoughts, if it wasn't lockdowns, ventilators, masks, vaccines, the Swedish model what was it. I guess there was test and trace I suppose, at least the German model which seemed to be a relative success. We haven't heard anything on travel bans introduced latterly by the UK.

After that its bombardment with UV light, bleach and hydroxochloroquine.

I'm just grateful that another in the gifted and talented class has promised us a detailed case study so us dolts can be confronted with the errors of our ways.

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Originally Posted by Canton Kev

The same Sweden who’s Covid death rate is 1.6x higher than Finland and 2.5x higher than Norway? Their 2 immediate neighbours and most comparable countries.

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The damage caused by the lockdown will exceed the Covid death rate, that’s the point , and it’s becoming apparent.

In my opinion when you factor in the mental health fallout, neglect of people suffering from anything other than Covid , and the financial obliteration that’s ongoing , then those figures will be dwarfed in the long term.

Even the most hardened supporters of lockdown must realistically be aware that they were not following the science, but money ( for themselves)

Remember these same governments have been sending generations to die in economic wars for hundreds of years.

That’s my view on it anyway,ultimately it’s still Covid propaganda from my side and the other which is what they want.

Some people were more worried about losing their businesses than losing lives. Of course they will still be bitter. What's a life anyway compared to lovely dosh?

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Some people were more worried about losing their businesses than losing lives. Of course they will still be bitter. What's a life anyway compared to lovely dosh?

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Depends if you had your own business or not I guess especially when they had children to feed and staff with families to consider , odd that isn’t it ?

I did wonder what had happened to all the recently unemployed Twitter propagandists, and it looks like some of them might be posting on here!

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

I did wonder what had happened to all the recently unemployed Twitter propagandists, and it looks like some of them might be posting on here!

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You couldn't contribute anything more vague and meaningless could you?

Anyway, I thought you had an oven-ready perfectly good case study on this forum where posters regurgitated every morsel of propaganda and disinformation under the sun. When are we likely to see it?

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Originally Posted by TWGL1

Depends if you had your own business or not I guess especially when they had children to feed and staff with families to consider , odd that isn’t it ?

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The State will always make sure children don't go hungry thank goodness. On the other hand when someone dies there's no way back from that.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

The State will always make sure children don't go hungry thank goodness. On the other hand when someone dies there's no way back from that.

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You think the state always make sure children don’t go hungry, are you sure about that?

Poverty is intrinsically linked to poor health, and reduced life chances.

Try and take a look at the wider picture, which is what we are discussing here.

https://www.theguardian.com/business...ungry-children

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Originally Posted by TWGL1

You think the state always make sure children don’t go hungry, are you sure about that?

Poverty is intrinsically linked to poor health, and reduced life chances.

Try and take a look at the wider picture, which is what we are discussing here.

https://www.theguardian.com/business...ungry-children

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Yes the State does provide basic sustenance for children that go hungry but it could always do more if it wasn't afraid to tax those better off.

You're absolutely right that poor health is linked to poverty and again the State should do more to eradicate it by levelling things up.

However in extremis when faced with the prospect of thousands of lives being lost I would always say that the right thing to do is to protect those most at risk. If that means lockdowns and whatever comes with it then that's fine by me. Something's got to give unfortunately in a crisis and as I say I'd rather a business be lost than a life. Not ideal I know but desperate times call for desperate measures.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Yes the State does provide basic sustenance for children that go hungry but it could always do more if it wasn't afraid to tax those better off.

You're absolutely right that poor health is linked to poverty and again the State should do more to eradicate it by levelling things up.

However in extremis when faced with the prospect of thousands of lives being lost I would always say that the right thing to do is to protect those most at risk. If that means lockdowns and whatever comes with it then that's fine by me. Something's got to give unfortunately in a crisis and as I say I'd rather a business be lost than a life. Not ideal I know but desperate times call for desperate measures.

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Most of the measures were not needed against something that was mild to moderate to 90% of the population. Most would not know they would have had anything other than flu unless they used a test which in itself was inaccurate.

Out of interest does anybody know how many vaccines given out were placebo ?

One in ten springs to mind.

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Originally Posted by TWGL1

Most of the measures were not needed against something that was mild to moderate to 90% of the population. Most would not know they would have had anything other than flu unless they used a test which in itself was inaccurate.

Out of interest does anybody know how many vaccines given out were placebo ?

One in ten springs to mind.

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I guess you like to think of yourself as the embodiment of free thinking enlightenment as far as the management of Covid is concerned but perhaps you can expand on the point you are seeking to make here.

Earlier today, you thought we should have handled the crisis like Sweden. Evidence that they lost 10 times as many lives as their neighbour didn't seem to shake you from that belief. Nor did the fact that they subsequently came back within the norms of most other countries by lockdowns, social distancing, masks and latterly a successful vaccination programme.

So now you are back asking some arcane questions about the vaccine and placebos. Are you thinking that people including the Swedes, were duped into thinking they had a vaccine when they were guinea pigs in some bizarre experiment.

Don't keep us hanging!

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

I guess you like to think of yourself as the embodiment of free thinking enlightenment as far as the management of Covid is concerned but perhaps you can expand on the point you are seeking to make here.

Earlier today, you thought we should have handled the crisis like Sweden. Evidence that they lost 10 times as many lives as their neighbour didn't seem to shake you from that belief. Nor did the fact that they subsequently came back within the norms of most other countries by lockdowns, social distancing, masks and latterly a successful vaccination programme.

So now you are back asking some arcane questions about the vaccine and placebos. Are you thinking that people including the Swedes, were duped into thinking they had a vaccine when they were guinea pigs in some bizarre experiment.

Don't keep us hanging!

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I’ve said already and will say it once again, excluding Covid , excess deaths from other factors will far outweigh deaths “saved” from lockdown policies.

Finland and Norway are neighbouring countries however they are still vastly different in terms of population density and Norway had an unusually low death rate prior to lockdown. There is more than one factor to consider when comparing the Scandinavian neighbours.

Do you dispute the theory that excess deaths ( from all ages ) will far outweigh those saved from lockdown, bearing in mind most deaths during Covid were people who were over 60 with Co morbidities?

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Originally Posted by TWGL1

I’ve said already and will say it once again, excluding Covid , excess deaths from other factors will far outweigh deaths “saved” from lockdown policies.

Finland and Norway are neighbouring countries however they are still vastly different in terms of population density and Norway had an unusually low death rate prior to lockdown. There is more than one factor to consider when comparing the Scandinavian neighbours.

Do you dispute the theory that excess deaths ( from all ages ) will far outweigh those saved from lockdown, bearing in mind most deaths during Covid were people who were over 60 with Co morbidities?

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Also with covid, and many not even requiring a test.

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Originally Posted by TWGL1

I’ve said already and will say it once again, excluding Covid , excess deaths from other factors will far outweigh deaths “saved” from lockdown policies.

Finland and Norway are neighbouring countries however they are still vastly different in terms of population density and Norway had an unusually low death rate prior to lockdown. There is more than one factor to consider when comparing the Scandinavian neighbours.

Do you dispute the theory that excess deaths ( from all ages ) will far outweigh those saved from lockdown, bearing in mind most deaths during Covid were people who were over 60 with Co morbidities?

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There are scientific studies, different to opinions apparently, that show that Sweden and Norway are similar in all major socio-economic and and geographical ways.

Now. You were making a point, apparently, about vaccines and placebos. What is it?