1.5 million people

That's the increase in net migration to the UK in the last two years. 685,000 last year and 764,000 the year before.

That's nearly 50% bigger than Birmingham, a city with 500 odd schools, hundreds of doctors surgeries, dozens of miles of motorway, thousands of hospital beds, 500,000 homes etc etc

That, +50% is what's needed every two years just to keep up with the level of services we have been used to.

It's absolute madness. Irrespective of who is in power, does anyone think it can carry on?

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce99y7l741po

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

That's the increase in net migration to the UK in the last two years. 685,000 last year and 764,000 the year before.

That's nearly 50% bigger than Birmingham, a city with 500 odd schools, hundreds of doctors surgeries, dozens of miles of motorway, thousands of hospital beds, 500,000 homes etc etc

That, +50% is what's needed every two years just to keep up with the level of services we have been used to.

It's absolute madness. Irrespective of who is in power, does anyone think it can carry on?

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce99y7l741po

---

The short answer is no, but now we are outside of Schengen, migration can only be a symptom and not the cause. The government have full control over this, are seemingly against mass migration and are still waving people through, that should raise alarm bells as to the resilience of the UK economy.

Also it's difficult to say migration puts a strain on health services when an extraordinary number of the work visas are in health and social care sector. Again this is a symptom of low pay and an aging population. If I can earn min wage to stand around Sainsbury's or the same for care work, I'm doing the former.

It's a bit of a perfect storm, and I hate to bang on a familiar drum but the state pension simply was not designed for the structure of society we see today. Add to that the runaway train that is triple lock, there are simply not enough working age people to pay for this.

So, I'll go with no, but yes, but no.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

That's the increase in net migration to the UK in the last two years. 685,000 last year and 764,000 the year before.

That's nearly 50% bigger than Birmingham, a city with 500 odd schools, hundreds of doctors surgeries, dozens of miles of motorway, thousands of hospital beds, 500,000 homes etc etc

That, +50% is what's needed every two years just to keep up with the level of services we have been used to.

It's absolute madness. Irrespective of who is in power, does anyone think it can carry on?

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce99y7l741po

---

One must wonder why?

It makes me laugh

The Tories are saying Labour don't care about illegal immigration

The figures released today are on the Conservative watch

Ending migration to wealthier western countries will never be completely stopped , the best to hope for is better management

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

The short answer is no, but now we are outside of Schengen, migration can only be a symptom and not the cause. The government have full control over this, are seemingly against mass migration and are still waving people through, that should raise alarm bells as to the resilience of the UK economy.

Also it's difficult to say migration puts a strain on health services when an extraordinary number of the work visas are in health and social care sector. Again this is a symptom of low pay and an aging population. If I can earn min wage to stand around Sainsbury's or the same for care work, I'm doing the former.

It's a bit of a perfect storm, and I hate to bang on a familiar drum but the state pension simply was not designed for the structure of society we see today. Add to that the runaway train that is triple lock, there are simply not enough working age people to pay for this.

So, I'll go with no, but yes, but no.

---

I agree with that.

But for the national conversation to get beyond hysterical tabloid slogans we need to break down the issues and the numbers and talk about costs and benefits, the risks and obligations, in a serious way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

The short answer is no, but now we are outside of Schengen

---

We were never within the Schengen area

And thanks to this Govt a 75% decrease in applications for workers in the Health and Care sector where we actually need jobs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost

We were never within the Schengen area

---

Yep, my mistake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JamesWales

That's the increase in net migration to the UK in the last two years. 685,000 last year and 764,000 the year before.

That's nearly 50% bigger than Birmingham, a city with 500 odd schools, hundreds of doctors surgeries, dozens of miles of motorway, thousands of hospital beds, 500,000 homes etc etc

That, +50% is what's needed every two years just to keep up with the level of services we have been used to.

It's absolute madness. Irrespective of who is in power, does anyone think it can carry on?

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce99y7l741po

---

It's a good point.

Who do we need to vote out?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lardy

It's a good point.

Who do we need to vote out?

---

The Labour Party

They came in and said they would sort out immigration

14 years

It's time to give the conservatives a chance

I think both the main parties have completely fkd up on it, as have most major parties across Europe.

It's wholly unsustainable. One years immigration is about 50% more than the entire windrush generation over 23 years.

The services needed to cope simply cannot be funded, planned and built to keep up, let alone an increasingly divided society.

I really do think a very different approach will be needed in future, though its likely going to take the failure of the next Labour govt to address housing need that will facilitate it.

I'm pretty pessimistic, I have to say

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JamesWales

I think both the main parties have completely fkd up on it, as have most major parties across Europe.

It's wholly unsustainable. One years immigration is about 50% more than the entire windrush generation over 23 years.

The services needed to cope simply cannot be funded, planned and built to keep up, let alone an increasingly divided society.

I really do think a very different approach will be needed in future, though its likely going to take the failure of the next Labour govt to address housing need that will facilitate it.

I'm pretty pessimistic, I have to say

---

How about the failure of the tory party failing to address housing need for 14 years 😂

And having the feckin bare faced cheek to continue to try and sell council homes

So what's the different approach ?

My view is its about reasonable management instead of the right wing shut the borders stop the boats

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JamesWales

That's the increase in net migration to the UK in the last two years. 685,000 last year and 764,000 the year before.

That's nearly 50% bigger than Birmingham, a city with 500 odd schools, hundreds of doctors surgeries, dozens of miles of motorway, thousands of hospital beds, 500,000 homes etc etc

That, +50% is what's needed every two years just to keep up with the level of services we have been used to.

It's absolute madness. Irrespective of who is in power, does anyone think it can carry on?

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce99y7l741po

---

Can it carry on?

I mean yes, it can.
Despite what some may want you to think, the country is not "full". However we need to face up to the realities of what that means and make a sober decision about which way the country should go.

the country could support a much larger population, but it would be a very different place than it is today. Larger cities, denser population - it would require significant investment in infrastructure, and there would be cultural changes too, with more influences from other countries.

None of that is necessarily intrinsically bad though.
Many people prefer living in cities than out in the country
Most of us enjoy foreign cuisines instead of boiled meat and vegetables with a stodgy pudding.

it's probably the easiest way to ensure growth continues in the economy, and to pay for an increasingly ageing population - which are things that most of us definitely want to be able to do.

However, it isn't the only way.

Japan (which incidentally has a much higher population and population density than the UK) has been declining in population since 2008 - it hasn't turned to immigration to maintain growth in the economy.
As a result GDP has flatlined there for about the last 30 years.
However they still maintain a good quality of life, and good public services.
House prices are lower today than they were in 1990.

There is definitely an argument to say that we could look at an alternative approach and do more of a managed decline of the country than to throw everything at the altar of GDP, just we never really hear these things properly discussed, instead we seem to let far right morons frame the debate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I think both the main parties have completely fkd up on it, as have most major parties across Europe.

It's wholly unsustainable. One years immigration is about 50% more than the entire windrush generation over 23 years.

The services needed to cope simply cannot be funded, planned and built to keep up, let alone an increasingly divided society.

I really do think a very different approach will be needed in future, though its likely going to take the failure of the next Labour govt to address housing need that will facilitate it.

I'm pretty pessimistic, I have to say

---

Jimbo, here's a puzzle from Econ 101 for you - If productivity is flat and GDFCF is stagnant, where does economic growth come from?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

The short answer is no, but now we are outside of Schengen, migration can only be a symptom and not the cause. The government have full control over this, are seemingly against mass migration and are still waving people through, that should raise alarm bells as to the resilience of the UK economy.

Also it's difficult to say migration puts a strain on health services when an extraordinary number of the work visas are in health and social care sector. Again this is a symptom of low pay and an aging population. If I can earn min wage to stand around Sainsbury's or the same for care work, I'm doing the former.

It's a bit of a perfect storm, and I hate to bang on a familiar drum but the state pension simply was not designed for the structure of society we see today. Add to that the runaway train that is triple lock, there are simply not enough working age people to pay for this.

So, I'll go with no, but yes, but no.

---

We were never a part of Schengen. We opted to have our own border controls and wouldn't abolish them, otherwise anyone from the EU could have entered the UK without passport controls.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

That's the increase in net migration to the UK in the last two years. 685,000 last year and 764,000 the year before.

That's nearly 50% bigger than Birmingham, a city with 500 odd schools, hundreds of doctors surgeries, dozens of miles of motorway, thousands of hospital beds, 500,000 homes etc etc

That, +50% is what's needed every two years just to keep up with the level of services we have been used to.

It's absolute madness. Irrespective of who is in power, does anyone think it can carry on?

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce99y7l741po

---

Once again, another numpty who hasn't a clue about immigration figures. Do you think these are all people who come here on boats? :hehe:

Almost half a million of those immigrants were students. Over 100k came from Ukraine. It's also worth considering that our universities are overall dependent on foreign students.

Sadly, lots look at immigration figures like these and presume they're mainly asylum seekers or illegal immigrants. In fact, the numbers claiming asylum are relatively low. The UK has also granted a lot of work visas to non-EU citizens.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Once again, another numpty who hasn't a clue about immigration figures. Do you think these are all people who come here on boats? :hehe:

Almost half a million of those immigrants were students. Over 100k came from Ukraine. It's also worth considering that our universities are overall dependent on foreign students.

Sadly, lots look at immigration figures like these and presume they're mainly asylum seekers or illegal immigrants. In fact, the numbers claiming asylum are relatively low. The UK has also granted a lot of work visas to non-EU citizens.

---

Let's call the latest figures 750 k

600k include students , many of whom return ......and Ukrainian families ......many of whom return

So we have illegal immigrants , asylum seekers and usual migration , a figure of 150 k

It seems having a sensible immigration policy regarding the above and cracking down on illegal immigrants is perfectly achievable

Brexit was sold to many to sort this out

That's worked well

So now they want to vote reform

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Once again, another numpty who hasn't a clue about immigration figures. Do you think these are all people who come here on boats? :hehe:

Almost half a million of those immigrants were students. Over 100k came from Ukraine. It's also worth considering that our universities are overall dependent on foreign students.

Sadly, lots look at immigration figures like these and presume they're mainly asylum seekers or illegal immigrants. In fact, the numbers claiming asylum are relatively low. The UK has also granted a lot of work visas to non-EU citizens.

---

You are alright jack, aren't you?!

Where did I mention boats? Do students and Ukrainians not use public services?

These are absolute unprecedent figures. Last two years are three times the previous norms, which are themselves about five times the norm when most of us were growing up.

Take some responsibility ffs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

You are alright jack, aren't you?!

Where did I mention boats? Do students and Ukrainians not use public services?

These are absolute unprecedent figures. Last two years are three times the previous norms, which are themselves about five times the norm when most of us were growing up.

Take some responsibility ffs.

---

So I take it you wish to drastically cut the number of foreign students coming into the UK?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Let's call the latest figures 750 k

600k include students , many of whom return ......and Ukrainian families ......many of whom return

So we have illegal immigrants , asylum seekers and usual migration , a figure of 150 k

It seems having a sensible immigration policy regarding the above and cracking down on illegal immigrants is perfectly achievable

Brexit was sold to many to sort this out

That's worked well

So now they want to vote reform

---

Absolutely spot on.

Immigration is the argument that the political right keep spewing out to try and gain support. As you say, Brexit was about taking control of our borders, though we already had that control anyway. Since then there has been endless talk about "stopping the boats" and sorting out immigration. The point is that most immigration cannot be sorted out. Universities rely on foreign students. Plaid Cymru have asked the Welsh Government for Wales to be a special case and to allow foreign students into Welsh universities in the event of foreign student numbers being cut.

The Tories have had 14 years and Brexit to sort out immigration. It's not as easy as some people think. They just see figures and have no idea of what is really going on. I've almost got fed up of discussing immigration with those who don't know what they're talking about and have no interest in being educated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

So I take it you wish to drastically cut the number of foreign students coming into the UK?

---

I would, yep.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I would, yep.

---

Any reason, and I presume you'd be happy with the problems that would cause our universities?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Absolutely spot on.

Immigration is the argument that the political right keep spewing out to try and gain support. As you say, Brexit was about taking control of our borders, though we already had that control anyway. Since then there has been endless talk about "stopping the boats" and sorting out immigration. The point is that most immigration cannot be sorted out. Universities rely on foreign students. Plaid Cymru have asked the Welsh Government for Wales to be a special case and to allow foreign students into Welsh universities in the event of foreign student numbers being cut.

The Tories have had 14 years and Brexit to sort out immigration. It's not as easy as some people think. They just see figures and have no idea of what is really going on. I've almost got fed up of discussing immigration with those who don't know what they're talking about and have no interest in being educated.

---

People think it's too high because it makes improving our collective quality of life very very difficult when it's that level.

Of course the Tories bear responsibility for this.

Not sure how you think you are educating people on this. Saying that a large part of immigration is students isn't the killer take you think it is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

People think it's too high because it makes improving our collective quality of life very very difficult when it's that level.

Of course the Tories bear responsibility for this.

Not sure how you think you are educating people on this. Saying that a large part of immigration is students isn't the killer take you think it is.

---

There is no evidence that it makes improving our quality of life more difficult. That's just an opinion. I'm of the opinion that immigration can enhance our way of life. I was a mature student only a few years ago and am grateful to have had the opportunity to study alongside others from different countries, different ethnicities etc. Last year I took part in a concert with a group of refugees and it was a humbling and enriching experience. Of course we need a sensible approach to immigration, not one based on numbers and shut the borders to stop people coming in.

Most people who are against immigration have no idea who is coming into the country in what number and why. Most people I encounter, when you discuss immigration, basically want an end to "illegals". That's the depth of their knowledge and they won't be shifted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

There is no evidence that it makes improving our quality of life more difficult. That's just an opinion. I'm of the opinion that immigration can enhance our way of life. I was a mature student only a few years ago and am grateful to have had the opportunity to study alongside others from different countries, different ethnicities etc. Last year I took part in a concert with a group of refugees and it was a humbling and enriching experience. Of course we need a sensible approach to immigration, not one based on numbers and shut the borders to stop people coming in.

Most people who are against immigration have no idea who is coming into the country in what number and why. Most people I encounter, when you discuss immigration, basically want an end to "illegals". That's the depth of their knowledge and they won't be shifted.

---

Of course all those things can be true but there is a limit at which it seriously impacts upon services, house prices and the like. The link between wages and house prices completely breaks when inflation soared in the early 2000s.

I'm glad you enjoyed the concert with refugees (who aren't typical immigrants of course) but I'll guarantee you did it from a position of being a homeowner and relatively sheltered from some of the more negative impacts of such high numbers.

It's unsustainable. We can't keep up. You can't fund, plan and build the services needed to keep up with that level of increase in population. That's a reality irrespective of the govt.

A lot of people placing faith in Labour may well be in for a rude awakening I'm afraid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Of course all those things can be true but there is a limit at which it seriously impacts upon services, house prices and the like. The link between wages and house prices completely breaks when inflation soared in the early 2000s.

I'm glad you enjoyed the concert with refugees (who aren't typical immigrants of course) but I'll guarantee you did it from a position of being a homeowner and relatively sheltered from some of the more negative impacts of such high numbers.

It's unsustainable. We can't keep up. You can't fund, plan and build the services needed to keep up with that level of increase in population. That's a reality irrespective of the govt.

A lot of people placing faith in Labour may well be in for a rude awakening I'm afraid.

---

*When immigration soared* not inflation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

You are alright jack, aren't you?!

Where did I mention boats? Do students and Ukrainians not use public services?

These are absolute unprecedent figures. Last two years are three times the previous norms, which are themselves about five times the norm when most of us were growing up.

ATake some responsibility ffs.

---

You need to direct that to your conservative government

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

*When immigration soared* not inflation.

---

Why are labour in government going to give those who vote Labour a rude awakening when it comes to immigration ?

Who has screwed things up for 14 years ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

So I take it you wish to drastically cut the number of foreign students coming into the UK?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JamesWales

I would, yep.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Any reason, and I presume you'd be happy with the problems that would cause our universities?

---

As someone who works for a university, I'm very keen to hear an answer to that question.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stevo

As someone who works for a university, I'm very keen to hear an answer to that question.

---

Fundamentally I think universities have lost their raison d'etre, which is to educate, inform, inspire etc the future generations of this country, primarily. I think with hindsight it was a mistake changing poytechnics to universities, as they provided vital skills to primarily local people and helped with upskilling people for jobs etc. It's no great surprise that a decade or two after they closed we suddenly don't have the skills in many typically working class industries and have to rely on others.

For our traditional universities, I think they have grown too large, become too dominant in local cities, creating significant distortion in housing markets, whilst financially becoming dependent on foreign students (understandably given the fees) which is a pretty unsustainable model in the long term, which I think is happening now.

So yeah, id rather see the purpose of universities change, and whilst I don't wish any to close, I think it's likely as the model is unsustainable

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

It makes me laugh

The Tories are saying Labour don't care about illegal immigration

The figures released today are on the Conservative watch

Ending migration to wealthier western countries will never be completely stopped , the best to hope for is better management

---

If you want mass immigration vote Labour - they started it all off "go get them from anywhere" TB
If you want mass immigration vote Conservative - they continued to let it happen. Possibly if the Rwanda transfers start to happen - then it may stop. We saw it have an affect when the Irish border (ironically) got clogged up.
Lib Dems - would be even worse. In fact Govts all over Europe have failed. But some are now starting to sort it out - possibly.

Most Labour types are too scared to mention immigration, conservatives are slightly less embarrassed. Anyone else that calls it out gets labelled a racist.

Tony Blair (I am no fan) at CBI from 20 years ago:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...olicy.speeches

Interesting to see the numbers, the tone, the issues and the arguments from 20 years ago.

20 years of weak and ineffective government!

I was looking for the 'go get them from anywhere' quote, but missed it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Fundamentally I think universities have lost their raison d'etre, which is to educate, inform, inspire etc the future generations of this country, primarily. I think with hindsight it was a mistake changing poytechnics to universities, as they provided vital skills to primarily local people and helped with upskilling people for jobs etc. It's no great surprise that a decade or two after they closed we suddenly don't have the skills in many typically working class industries and have to rely on others.

For our traditional universities, I think they have grown too large, become too dominant in local cities, creating significant distortion in housing markets, whilst financially becoming dependent on foreign students (understandably given the fees) which is a pretty unsustainable model in the long term, which I think is happening now.

So yeah, id rather see the purpose of universities change, and whilst I don't wish any to close, I think it's likely as the model is unsustainable

---

I agree with you on the polytechnics. We can blame the Tories for that one.

And you're right too that universities have become too dependant on income from foreign students. So, what's the answer? Substantially increase student fees?

The purpose of universities is still to educate, inform, inspire, etc. but interdisciplinarity is key, so working on the global stage is essential and the way forward. We need to reach out and collaborate, not sever ties. Brexit really is a backwards step.