Centre halves

Noticeable that Derby had 3 big very experienced centre halves at the back tonight in Clarke Forsyth and Phillips fighting for every ball

We are so soft at the back. I think Fish will become a decent centre half but in our current situation do we persist with a young ish centre half in his first season of Championship football alongside either a left back or right back as he has been with Bagan and Ng or do we revert to our more experienced centre halves in Goutas and Daland? Problem is they all have a mistake in them .

Riza is guilty of changing our team around too often, especially at the back so he’s got to pick a centre back pairing and stick with them until the end of the season , I’m thinking maybe we need Goutas and Daland back and Ng and Bagan at full backs, with O Dowda further forward and stick with that 4 at the back for the remaining 7 games to get some consistency and unity.

I’m not sure that’s the answer but we need to somehow start keeping clean sheets as we have a goal threat now with Salech and Davies providing options alongside Robinson and Ashford.

How we could do with a Morrison / Bamba pairing right now !

Daland is weak as piss. He's a complete disaster, he got hooked 3 times in his last 7 starts. He cannot play again this season. Imagine if we're winning, and he gets brushed off the ball by a stiff breeze and they score. Goutas? Perhaps. Fish couldn't mark an x in a box either, he looses his man constantly.

Riza played Goutas and Daland as a combination for 8 straight games. We kept 1 clean sheet. So, a good situation. We've got to try to outscore the opposition. None of our centre halves are up to Championship football, and Bagan is the only defender I rate, which is something I never thought I'd say

Derby have kept two clean sheets in their winning run, Luton have two in their last four as well - we have two in our last twenty seven league matches! Not all of that can be put down to our central defenders (right back’s been a disaster area all season), but I’d say the closest we’ve had to a reliable centre back this season has been Joel Bagan - would anyone have believed that back in August?

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Noticeable that Derby had 3 big very experienced centre halves at the back tonight in Clarke Forsyth and Phillips fighting for every ball

We are so soft at the back. I think Fish will become a decent centre half but in our current situation do we persist with a young ish centre half in his first season of Championship football alongside either a left back or right back as he has been with Bagan and Ng or do we revert to our more experienced centre halves in Goutas and Daland? Problem is they all have a mistake in them .

Riza is guilty of changing our team around too often, especially at the back so he’s got to pick a centre back pairing and stick with them until the end of the season , I’m thinking maybe we need Goutas and Daland back and Ng and Bagan at full backs, with O Dowda further forward and stick with that 4 at the back for the remaining 7 games to get some consistency and unity.

I’m not sure that’s the answer but we need to somehow start keeping clean sheets as we have a goal threat now with Salech and Davies providing options alongside Robinson and Ashford.

How we could do with a Morrison / Bamba pairing right now !

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I think one problem managers have is , when a team is struggling for form, players who haven't done so well always have the potential to be dropped, while there will also be the temptation to look at other formations and styles to find a winning formula.

How often, on here and elsewhere, do you see fans saying players should be dropped or not picked after a poor performance? How often do fans disagree over how to play? Inconsistent or poor form only makes this worse. Imagine we concede 2 in a game for 3 games in a row. Manager gets it if he keeps the same defence game after game and doesn't make changes. Yet we also want a settled centre back pairing for obvious reasons.

It's easy to keep a winning side. It's much harder for any manager at the bottom, and why I think some overthink things. I get why that happens.

our current pairing of Bagan and Fish must be the youngest centre back pair we've had in a very long time

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Originally Posted by Rjk

our current pairing of Bagan and Fish must be the youngest centre back pair we've had in a very long time

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I think when we were last in the bottom division Gabbs was only 21 that season and we had some young players then. Can't remember who used to partner him at the back though.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

I think when we were last in the bottom division Gabbs was only 21 that season and we had some young players then. Can't remember who used to partner him at the back though.

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I'm pretty sure in the bottom division Gabbs mainly played as a full back and Rhys Weston played centre half until he moved to right back when we moved up. I think the other CBs we had were Eckhardt , Young and David Hughes.

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Originally Posted by Hilts

I'm pretty sure in the bottom division Gabbs mainly played as a full back and Rhys Weston played centre half until he moved to right back when we moved up. I think the other CBs we had were Eckhardt , Young and David Hughes.

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We spent a fair bit on Hughes didn't we? but he immediately got injured

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Noticeable that Derby had 3 big very experienced centre halves at the back tonight in Clarke Forsyth and Phillips fighting for every ball

We are so soft at the back. I think Fish will become a decent centre half but in our current situation do we persist with a young ish centre half in his first season of Championship football alongside either a left back or right back as he has been with Bagan and Ng or do we revert to our more experienced centre halves in Goutas and Daland? Problem is they all have a mistake in them .

Riza is guilty of changing our team around too often, especially at the back so he’s got to pick a centre back pairing and stick with them until the end of the season , I’m thinking maybe we need Goutas and Daland back and Ng and Bagan at full backs, with O Dowda further forward and stick with that 4 at the back for the remaining 7 games to get some consistency and unity.

I’m not sure that’s the answer but we need to somehow start keeping clean sheets as we have a goal threat now with Salech and Davies providing options alongside Robinson and Ashford.

How we could do with a Morrison / Bamba pairing right now !

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I've been saying this all season, he doesn't know his best back four, it's basics.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

I think one problem managers have is , when a team is struggling for form, players who haven't done so well always have the potential to be dropped, while there will also be the temptation to look at other formations and styles to find a winning formula.

How often, on here and elsewhere, do you see fans saying players should be dropped or not picked after a poor performance? How often do fans disagree over how to play? Inconsistent or poor form only makes this worse. Imagine we concede 2 in a game for 3 games in a row. Manager gets it if he keeps the same defence game after game and doesn't make changes. Yet we also want a settled centre back pairing for obvious reasons.

It's easy to keep a winning side. It's much harder for any manager at the bottom, and why I think some overthink things. I get why that happens.

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He's a novice, he hasn't got a clue what to do, he's learning on the job.

We had a choice of loads of experienced Managers, I can't remember there ever being such a glut of suitable Managers and Tan appointed Riza, he deserves to lose all his Millions.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

He's a novice, he hasn't got a clue what to do, he's learning on the job.

We had a choice of loads of experienced Managers, I can't remember there ever being such a glut of suitable Managers and Tan appointed Riza, he deserves to lose all his Millions.

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We've appointed "experienced" managers before and they've been no better.

and to be fair to Riza we've changed the back 4 so often because they kept dropping absolute clangers. They've all had ample opportunity to stake their claim to a starting position and not taken it.

If Riza felt he could rely on Goutas and Daland as a pairing then Im sure we probably woudn't have seen any of the other players in that position, injury permitting.

As it is, Fish and Bagan have the position, and they've done probably better than anyone else in that position so far this season so credit where it is due.

There could certainly be questions asked of our coaching staff - I believe Tom Ramasut is in charge of the defensive setup, with Purse and Ward involved with set pieces.

Worth noting that Riza inherited Ramasut and Purse and I think Ward and Shaw is the only one he's brought in himself.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

We've appointed "experienced" managers before and they've been no better.

and to be fair to Riza we've changed the back 4 so often because they kept dropping absolute clangers. They've all had ample opportunity to stake their claim to a starting position and not taken it.

If Riza felt he could rely on Goutas and Daland as a pairing then Im sure we probably woudn't have seen any of the other players in that position, injury permitting.

As it is, Fish and Bagan have the position, and they've done probably better than anyone else in that position so far this season so credit where it is due.

There could certainly be questions asked of our coaching staff - I believe Tom Ramasut is in charge of the defensive setup, with Purse and Ward involved with set pieces.

Worth noting that Riza inherited Ramasut and Purse and I think Ward and Shaw is the only one he's brought in himself.

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None of them have taken us down, Warnock got us promoted, and even Bulut got last year's squad top half.

McCarthy was the worst, but even he had a good solid new Manager bounce and a good start.

Morison, Hudson, and Riza have been a disaster, if you are going to get a novice at least get one with genuine promise.

I don't think we would be in this position if we had appointed an experienced Manager.

The last time we were in this situation we had Kipre and McGuinness at the back with in form NG sometimes making up a 3. Bamba on the coaching staff.

Philogene and Kaba.

:frown:

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Originally Posted by Hilts

I'm pretty sure in the bottom division Gabbs mainly played as a full back and Rhys Weston played centre half until he moved to right back when we moved up. I think the other CBs we had were Eckhardt , Young and David Hughes.

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Plus Lee Baddeley

Forgot Lee Jarman

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Originally Posted by Hilts

I'm pretty sure in the bottom division Gabbs mainly played as a full back and Rhys Weston played centre half until he moved to right back when we moved up. I think the other CBs we had were Eckhardt , Young and David Hughes.

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Yes, Gabbs switched to centre ba ck for the 01/02 and scored the winner in hios first game there agsinst Wycombe.

In Gabbs' first season with the club, he played more as a full back/wing back because we switched to three at the back under Alan Cork and it would bne Scott Young plaus one other (Hughes, Andy Jordan, Russell Perrett??) plus Leggy as sweeper.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

None of them have taken us down, Warnock got us promoted, and even Bulut got last year's squad top half.

McCarthy was the worst, but even he had a good solid new Manager bounce and a good start.

Morison, Hudson, and Riza have been a disaster, if you are going to get a novice at least get one with genuine promise.

I don't think we would be in this position if we had appointed an experienced Manager.

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Mick has a far better record than any of our managers post Warnock, other than Harris. It's not even close.

We would be in this position with an experienced manager, because our best centre half pairing has a young left back in it, and he's our best defender. We've spent 5m and signed 3 centre halves in the summer, and they're all crap there.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

I don't think we would be in this position if we had appointed an experienced Manager.

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You're entitled to your opinion, which I reckon in this case is bollocks.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

We've appointed "experienced" managers before and they've been no better.

and to be fair to Riza we've changed the back 4 so often because they kept dropping absolute clangers. They've all had ample opportunity to stake their claim to a starting position and not taken it.

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Absolutely.

As I've said before, given that our centrebacks have been making so many mistakes, imagine the outcry if Riza kept picking the same ones? I can imagine the comments:

"inexperienced crap manager picking the same useless players"
"how does xxx stay in after those mistakes?"
"ridiculous, 6 conceded in our last 2 games and he picks the same defence"

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

Mick has a far better record than any of our managers post Warnock, other than Harris. It's not even close.

We would be in this position with an experienced manager, because our best centre half pairing has a young left back in it, and he's our best defender. We've spent 5m and signed 3 centre halves in the summer, and they're all crap there.

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Mick was experienced yes, that's what we needed, not a Morison, Hudson, Riza inexperienced coach thrown in at the deep end.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

Mick has a far better record than any of our managers post Warnock, other than Harris. It's not even close.

We would be in this position with an experienced manager, because our best centre half pairing has a young left back in it, and he's our best defender. We've spent 5m and signed 3 centre halves in the summer, and they're all crap there.

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Are they crap though?

While our defensive issues are evident, managerial experience significantly influences defensive organisation. Managerial changes can impact team performance, with some teams improving and others declining post-change. Burnley, under Scott Parker, have conceded only nine goals in 26 matches, setting a potential record for defensive solidity. Therefore, with an experienced manager adept at organising defences, our current players might perform much better.​

It's a poor squad mixed with some young players who would give us hope for the future.

Lovely team goal converted by Simic in the week as well.

However appointing Riza has been the final mistake of an utterly useless board which is going to end up with us in L1 and some of those youngsters heading out.

We will be stuck mind with overpaid awful signings from last summer.

L1 next season won't be easy.

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

Are they crap though?

While our defensive issues are evident, managerial experience significantly influences defensive organisation. Managerial changes can impact team performance, with some teams improving and others declining post-change. Burnley, under Scott Parker, have conceded only nine goals in 26 matches, setting a potential record for defensive solidity. Therefore, with an experienced manager adept at organising defences, our current players might perform much better.​

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Our best centre half is a left back who was playing in the Belgian 2nd tier last season. Burnley have centre halves worth 10m+. You can only coach someone so much, I don't see how you can coach Daland to be significantly stronger, Fish to switch on etc, this is basic stuff and they can't do it

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Originally Posted by Hilts

It's a poor squad mixed with some young players who would give us hope for the future.

Lovely team goal converted by Simic in the week as well.

However appointing Riza has been the final mistake of an utterly useless board which is going to end up with us in L1 and some of those youngsters heading out.

We will be stuck mind with overpaid awful signings from last summer.

L1 next season won't be easy.

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But apart from all that...... :hehe:

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

Are they crap though?

While our defensive issues are evident, managerial experience significantly influences defensive organisation. Managerial changes can impact team performance, with some teams improving and others declining post-change. Burnley, under Scott Parker, have conceded only nine goals in 26 matches, setting a potential record for defensive solidity. Therefore, with an experienced manager adept at organising defences, our current players might perform much better.​

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by City123

Yes.

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According to Riza he is in charge of the attacking setup he was an attacking player, so that makes sense. the other coaches organise the defence, most of whom he had little say in them being there.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

According to Riza he is in charge of the attacking setup he was an attacking player, so that makes sense. the other coaches organise the defence, most of whom he had little say in them being there.

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We've scored 40 goals in 39 games...

I said months ago we should have brought in Morrison as an organiser at the back once we'd got him fit even at his age he's better than Goutas

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Originally Posted by PontBlue

I said months ago we should have brought in Morrison as an organiser at the back once we'd got him fit even at his age he's better than Goutas

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I think he would have been a good influence as a defence coach and given them some confidence, but he's obvo well past it.

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Originally Posted by PontBlue

I said months ago we should have brought in Morrison as an organiser at the back once we'd got him fit even at his age he's better than Goutas

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It would have been a disaster attempting to get Morrison fit and playing for us.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

Our best centre half is a left back who was playing in the Belgian 2nd tier last season. Burnley have centre halves worth 10m+. You can only coach someone so much, I don't see how you can coach Daland to be significantly stronger, Fish to switch on etc, this is basic stuff and they can't do it

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Quite. I don't get why this is a mystery to some, that it's just a case of having an experienced manager to plug the leaks.

There's an old saying that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Last season Bulut realised we had a crap defence and went more and more defensive to try and help that. This season Riza has tried the opposite approach that attack is the best form of defence.

This season has been one of the worst ever for keeping clean sheets. While it's easy to blame the manager and suggest this would be easily solved by having an experienced gaffer, at some point the penny has to drop and we realise that our defenders are just crap at this level. When we won promotion from the third tier last time we had Gabbs and Prior at the back. Both of those (from the time) would walk into our side. It's that bad. If we go down we need new centre backs.

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Originally Posted by BLUETIT

Plus Lee Baddeley

Forgot Lee Jarman

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And James Collins

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

We've scored 40 goals in 39 games...

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42. We had scored 33 in the previous 39 league games....

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Originally Posted by Rock_Flock_of_Five

It would have been a disaster attempting to get Morrison fit and playing for us.

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And our defence isn't?

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Originally Posted by PontBlue

And our defence isn't?

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So you want to compound the problem, rather than try and make it better?

Just looking back at the centre backs selected to start our Championship matches this year:

Fish Chambers
Ng Fish Daland
Fish Goutas Daland
Fish Bagan
Fish Bagan
Ng Fish Bagan
Goutas Fish
Goutas Bagan
Ng Goutas Bagan
Fish Ng
Ng Goutas Bagan
Goutas Bagan
Goutas Fish Bagan
Goutas Daland
Goutas Daland
Goutas Daland
Goutas Daland
Goutas Daland
Goutas Daland
Goutas Daland

It was settled in January, when we won 2, drew 4 and lost 0, but then we lost 7-0 to Leeds and we haven't seen that partnership again. In our 13 games since then we've had 10 different combinations, switching regularly between 2 & 3 CBs and the CB selection has only been unchanged once. It's not the only defensive issue, and of course sometimes it's influenced by injuries and suspensions, but it's not helping is it.