Unpunished Annoying Foul Play

As young as this season is, sly (and not so sly) tugging of shirts is a frequent occurrence already. So rarely punished that I’m beginning to wonder if it’s accepted and allowed now. I think most of us who were at Vale Park the other night were a bit annoyed when a Port Vale defender had about 30 quids worth of Salech’s jersey in his hand at one point in the second half, in the penalty area as well. Ironically, the ref gave us a free kick for the same offence not two minutes later on Salech, this time outside the box.

Our lot are guilty of it as well, Bagan is quite adept at it. Can see someone lashing out in frustration at some point resulting in a red card. It’s something that pisses me off as a spectator, the player having his shirt pulled must be fuming. C’mon refs, get a grip (for want of a better phrase).

The one that annoys me is at corners.
Corner is just about to be taken then ref intervenes for players pushing and shoving. He then allows the corner to be taken while exactly the same pushing and shoving starts again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by splott parker

As young as this season is, sly (and not so sly) tugging of shirts is a frequent occurrence already. So rarely punished that I’m beginning to wonder if it’s accepted and allowed now. I think most of us who were at Vale Park the other night were a bit annoyed when a Port Vale defender had about 30 quids worth of Salech’s jersey in his hand at one point in the second half, in the penalty area as well. Ironically, the ref gave us a free kick for the same offence not two minutes later on Salech, this time outside the box.

Our lot are guilty of it as well, Bagan is quite adept at it. Can see someone lashing out in frustration at some point resulting in a red card. It’s something that pisses me off as a spectator, the player having his shirt pulled must be fuming. C’mon refs, get a grip (for want of a better phrase).

---

There was quite a bit of it in the Peterborough match too, and that ref seemed fine with it as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ValeView

The one that annoys me is at corners.
Corner is just about to be taken then ref intervenes for players pushing and shoving. He then allows the corner to be taken while exactly the same pushing and shoving starts again.

---

I feel sorry for the referee in those situations, what can he do? Such a tight space, players are going to grapple a bit. He or she would have to stop play and have a word about 10 times during a match, which would ruin a game, and they have to be mindful of that. Cards wont help either, players on both sides would rack up bookings or eventually sent off, it isn't something i would like to see. The Authorities need to bring in other punishments to stop it happening. If it's an attacking player who blatantly carries out a wrestling fest at a corner, then the ref should reverse the decision and give a goal kick, if it's a defender then the attacking player gets an extra corner on top of the original, or just let them get on with it.....

The only way to stop it is to “spray paint” their shirts on :hehe:

There was a real clamp down a number of years ago, I remember Howard Webb giving a penalty against us in the play off semi against Reading,I think short term there could be a spate of penalties given but if the powers that be stood firm,I think it would be a good stand to take. My particular beef is when referees book a keeper for time wasting in the 90th minute when they’ve been at it for the whole half, I can’t think of a single instance when a keeper has been given a second yellow for wasting time.

That’s my point with corners. If he isn’t going to punish the foul play then just let them take the corner.
Why bother with the farce of warning them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BLUETIT

The only way to stop it is to “spray paint” their shirts on :hehe:

---

Or the back part of the shirt attached by Velcro:hehe:

The problem with the shirt pulling is they all do it. Salech included.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

The problem with the shirt pulling is they all do it. Salech included.

---

Yep, but it’s still foul play, needs stamping out. ‘All players at it’ doesn’t make foul play acceptable. Referees aren’t doing their job properly, it’s not as if offenders are ‘hiding’ it, it’s blatant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ValeView

The one that annoys me is at corners.
Corner is just about to be taken then ref intervenes for players pushing and shoving. He then allows the corner to be taken while exactly the same pushing and shoving starts again.

---

Yep. It's ridiculous. Shirts being pulled, players getting shoved/held/wrapped up. All the refs have to do is start giving penalties and it stops.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by splott parker

Yep, but it’s still foul play, needs stamping out. ‘All players at it’ doesn’t make foul play acceptable. Referees aren’t doing their job properly, it’s not as if offenders are ‘hiding’ it, it’s blatant.

---

So, in the case of the first half incident, the defender is pulling Salech’s shirt and Salech’s pulling the defender’s shirt. What should the referee do?

I’m not trying to be a smart-ass here - I honestly don’t know what the referee can do that would be fair in such a situation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

The problem with the shirt pulling is they all do it. Salech included.

---

And that's it, it's become a part of the game, there are plenty of things going on during a game that could be punished, time wasting is probably the biggest problem. A referee doesn't want to ruin a game by picking up on every aspect of low level cheating, it would become a farce, and they have to be mindful of that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by splott parker

Yep, but it’s still foul play, needs stamping out. ‘All players at it’ doesn’t make foul play acceptable. Referees aren’t doing their job properly, it’s not as if offenders are ‘hiding’ it, it’s blatant.

---

We wouldn't have a game to watch if every little thing that happens on a football field was pulled up, although it may make you feel better at 6.45 pm when the final whistle blows....... :hehe:

I've wondered before whether only allowing 3 outfield players for each team in the penalty area at corners would improve the game. Could make corners less of a mêlée, with players looking for space in the box rather than jostling for position.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NYCBlue

Yep. It's ridiculous. Shirts being pulled, players getting shoved/held/wrapped up. All the refs have to do is start giving penalties and it stops.

---

Exactly, it would initially be a case of frequent stoppages but these niggly things that annoy players & spectators alike would hopefully die out. We want to see continuity and the game flowing, not players with pace being curtailed by ‘acceptable’ foul play. Start giving pelanties & free kicks, managers would soon be stopping this spoiling tactic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NYCBlue

Yep. It's ridiculous. Shirts being pulled, players getting shoved/held/wrapped up. All the refs have to do is start giving penalties and it stops.

---

I don't think it would stop, and we'd have 6 penalties a game...... Entertaining though.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Undercoverinwurzelland

There was quite a bit of it in the Peterborough match too, and that ref seemed fine with it as well.

---

I have a contrary view.

I thought that the ref in the Peterborough match was giving every tackle as a foul and disrupted the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BLUETIT

The only way to stop it is to “spray paint” their shirts on :hehe:

---

Or tight latex shirts?

Shirt pulling, instant yellow...body checking at corner, instant yellow . Holding the ball or throwing it away when not your FK RED. That would sort out the cheats.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

I feel sorry for the referee in those situations, what can he do? Such a tight space, players are going to grapple a bit. He or she would have to stop play and have a word about 10 times during a match, which would ruin a game, and they have to be mindful of that. Cards wont help either, players on both sides would rack up bookings or eventually sent off, it isn't something i would like to see. The Authorities need to bring in other punishments to stop it happening. If it's an attacking player who blatantly carries out a wrestling fest at a corner, then the ref should reverse the decision and give a goal kick, if it's a defender then the attacking player gets an extra corner on top of the original, or just let them get on with it.....

---

No new punishments are needed. If refs cautioned players and gave penalties it would soon stop.

StT.
<><
:tea:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ToTaL ITK

Shirt pulling, instant yellow...body checking at corner, instant yellow . Holding the ball or throwing it away when not your FK RED. That would sort out the cheats.

---

Also running to the ref to cry like a baby. To this day i've never seen a ref change his mind. Yellow card

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BLUETIT

The only way to stop it is to “spray paint” their shirts on :hehe:

---

TIT'S on the turn..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steve the Tea

No new punishments are needed. If refs cautioned players and gave penalties it would soon stop.

StT.
<><
:tea:

---

They do caution players and give penalties for offences....... You get my point..... Laws of the game need to change in terms of turning over advantage. There are plenty of fouls that take place that don't merit a booking in my view, and then we would have loads of cards, loads of stoppages, the game turns into a farce. Just reverse decisions , turn over the advantage or enhance the advantage, that way the game isn't stop start, the punishment is instant, and teams who persist will get hurt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ToTaL ITK

Shirt pulling, instant yellow...body checking at corner, instant yellow . Holding the ball or throwing it away when not your FK RED. That would sort out the cheats.

---

most players don't care if they pick up a yellow if it stops the opposition from advancing, it's a small price to pay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

They do caution players and give penalties for offences....... You get my point..... Laws of the game need to change in terms of turning over advantage. There are plenty of fouls that take place that don't merit a booking in my view, and then we would have loads of cards, loads of stoppages, the game turns into a farce. Just reverse decisions , turn over the advantage or enhance the advantage, that way the game isn't stop start, the punishment is instant, and teams who persist will get hurt.

---

So do you want pens given for shirt pulling and/or grappling, sly digs etc in the box or vice versa, attackers fouling defenders being penalised? Or let everything go, despite the laws, because it means the game doesn’t stop……when, we know it does hold the game up as it is, many’s the time the ref halts proceedings and delays corners, free kicks etc to lecture players about their shenanigans. Doesn’t penalise further or brandish a card and it just carries on unpunished. So what happens at the next corner? Rinse & repeat, it needs sorting out, this is what slows the game down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

most players don't care if they pick up a yellow if it stops the opposition from advancing, it's a small price to pay.

---

An early yellow gives a defender a tightrope to walk, usually ending up with him being subbed should he avoid a second yellow mid second half. How Lawlor escaped last week, God knows but he had to be hooked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by splott parker

So do you want pens given for shirt pulling and/or grappling, sly digs etc in the box or vice versa, attackers fouling defenders being penalised? Or let everything go, despite the laws, because it means the game doesnÂ’t stopÂ…Â…when, we know it does hold the game up as it is, manyÂ’s the time the ref halts proceedings and delays corners, free kicks etc to lecture players about their shenanigans. DoesnÂ’t penalise further or brandish a card and it just carries on unpunished. So what happens at the next corner? Rinse & repeat, it needs sorting out, this is what slows the game down.

---

Yes, i do want penalties given for blatant fouls, but the subject of corners is very difficult for officials, that's why they don't touch it, and i don't blame them either. A corner is quite unique, well it is unique, at no other time during a game do we see players set up that way, it's condensed, players are trying to get that edge in terms of position, players are attempting to pin each other, and in my view it's understandable, and the most difficult thing in all of this is that you'll have both players at it, there's rarely an innocent bystander in all of this. The real foul happens on delivery, when a player makes their move, but it happens so often that officials are probably to scared to give penalties, because there could be three or four a game, and for me, that would ruin the game. There are fouls going on all over the pitch during a game that officials let go, and i think that;s the case because it evens out over a game, so many players are at it. I don't want to see the whistle going every couple of minutes and players getting booked for shitty little fouls, i would prefer a referee to possess the ability to offer an advantage to the side who were fouled against, or even sin binning players, which would offer a huge advantage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

Yes, i do want penalties given for blatant fouls, but the subject of corners is very difficult for officials, that's why they don't touch it, and i don't blame them either. A corner is quite unique, well it is unique, at no other time during a game do we see players set up that way, it's condensed, players are trying to get that edge in terms of position, players are attempting to pin each other, and in my view it's understandable, and the most difficult thing in all of this is that you'll have both players at it, there's rarely an innocent bystander in all of this. The real foul happens on delivery, when a player makes their move, but it happens so often that officials are probably to scared to give penalties, because there could be three or four a game, and for me, that would ruin the game. There are fouls going on all over the pitch during a game that officials let go, and i think that;s the case because it evens out over a game, so many players are at it. I don't want to see the whistle going every couple of minutes and players getting booked for shitty little fouls, i would prefer a referee to possess the ability to offer an advantage to the side who were fouled against, or even sin binning players, which would offer a huge advantage.

---

I reckon that it’s the shitty little fouls that are so annoying and players are, wrongly, getting away with it. Breaking up play, antagonising both opponents & spectators. If we can see it, the ref definitely can, the only way to curtail it is by awarding a free kick. The perpetrators would soon get the message or their teammates & coaches would be ensuring they do. It’d make for a better, more flowing and less antagonistic game. Stopping skilful players through snide, not blatantly dangerous, tactics can also ruin the spectacle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

So, in the case of the first half incident, the defender is pulling Salech’s shirt and Salech’s pulling the defender’s shirt. What should the referee do?

---

I’m not surprised nobody has attempted to answer this one.

The difficulty officials have these days is that practically every player, whether they be attackers or defenders, tries to cheat in one way or another.

While we do occasionally see some genuinely poor performances from referees, on the whole they have my sympathy because their jobs have become virtually impossible due to the behaviour of the players, their coaches and their supporters. It’s why I believe much of the criticism they get is way over the top.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

I’m not surprised nobody has attempted to answer this one.

The difficulty officials have these days is that practically every player, whether they be attackers or defenders, tries to cheat in one way or another.

While we do occasionally see some genuinely poor performances from referees, on the whole they have my sympathy because their jobs have become virtually impossible due to the behaviour of the players, their coaches and their supporters. It’s why I believe much of the criticism they get is way over the top.

---

It is hard for refs but they are professional refs now and handling things like this should be part of their job. In this situation, where both players are at it, how about, neither side has a free kick but when the ball next goes dead, both players are yellow carded. Equal punishment for both offenders. Snide, niggly play needs to be erased from the game, if a few sendings off leads to this all well & good I say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

I’m not surprised nobody has attempted to answer this one.

The difficulty officials have these days is that practically every player, whether they be attackers or defenders, tries to cheat in one way or another.

While we do occasionally see some genuinely poor performances from referees, on the whole they have my sympathy because their jobs have become virtually impossible due to the behaviour of the players, their coaches and their supporters. It’s why I believe much of the criticism they get is way over the top.

---

I sort of answered it :hehe:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by splott parker

It is hard for refs but they are professional refs now and handling things like this should be part of their job. In this situation, where both players are at it, how about, neither side has a free kick but when the ball next goes dead, both players are yellow carded. Equal punishment for both offenders. Snide, niggly play needs to be erased from the game, if a few sendings off leads to this all well & good I say.

---

If these things are to be eradicated it would need a culture change throughout the game involving the players, the coaching staff, the supporters and the authorities.

It won’t happen, though. Players will continue to cheat, coaches and fans will continue to complain about that when it negatively impacts their teams but condone it when it favours them, and the authorities will come up with ever more tedious but futile efforts to combat it.

All the while, match officials will continue to take the blame because it’s easier for everyone that way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

If these things are to be eradicated it would need a culture change throughout the game involving the players, the coaching staff, the supporters and the authorities.

It won’t happen, though. Players will continue to cheat, coaches and fans will continue to complain about that when it negatively impacts their teams but condone it when it favours them, and the authorities will come up with ever more tedious but futile efforts to combat it.

All the while, match officials will continue to take the blame because it’s easier for everyone that way.

---

I’d just like to see the laws of the game applied across the board but as you allude to there seems to be a reluctance to do this. This reluctance doesn’t make it ok though, it spoils the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

They do caution players and give penalties for offences....... You get my point..... Laws of the game need to change in terms of turning over advantage. There are plenty of fouls that take place that don't merit a booking in my view, and then we would have loads of cards, loads of stoppages, the game turns into a farce. Just reverse decisions , turn over the advantage or enhance the advantage, that way the game isn't stop start, the punishment is instant, and teams who persist will get hurt.

---

If a foul occurs in the penalty area either a free kick is given to the defending team or a penalty to the attacking team. No new Laws need to be added. Its because the ones we have aren't invoked that we are in the pickle we are.

StT.
<><
:tea:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steve the Tea

If a foul occurs in the penalty area either a free kick is given to the defending team or a penalty to the attacking team. No new Laws need to be added. Its because the ones we have aren't invoked that we are in the pickle we are.

StT.
<><
:tea:

---

I think everyone knows that. The discussion is about what constitutes a foul.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steve the Tea

If a foul occurs in the penalty area either a free kick is given to the defending team or a penalty to the attacking team. No new Laws need to be added. Its because the ones we have aren't invoked that we are in the pickle we are.

StT.
<><
:tea:

---

I agree, but you know what happens, managers, coaches and players soon cotton on to one aspect of the game being favoured over the other and so the ones any new interpretation will favour will soon be attempting to make it work even more in their favour.

I've always advocated that a penalty should be awarded for any instance of wrestling by defenders when facing a dead ball situation, but also accept that this would mean attackers using every trick in the book to try to earn their team a cheap penalty. There is no easy solution to this, but I recall that after the 1990 World Cup was criticised for being boring and too defensive, the laws were changed for things like passing back to the goalkeeper, while there was a change in the way the offside law was administered - whereas linesman had previously been told to give the defending side the benefit of any doubt when making a decision on an offside, this was changed to the attacker being favoured in any very close offside decision.

Therefore, I'd issue a similar edict for the farcical situations we see now at free kicks, long throws and corners so that the benefit of any doubt when both defenders and attackers are "at it" goes to the attacking side. Hopefully, this may persuade managers and coaches to tell their players to start defending their goal as the laws of the game intended, but, again, this could only lead to an increase in cheating by attacking sides in the knowledge that there would be every chance of them earning a soft penalty.

I'd like to hope that a system whereby referees shown to have made an error by being fooled by an attacking player exploiting the new interpretation would be dealt with sympathetically, while the player concerned could be subject to retrospective yellow or red cards, while repeat offenders could be suspended and the manager/club charged with failing to control their players.

Would this work? Maybe not, but something needs to be done, because weak officiating is creating a farcical situation where players are not being penalised for clear and obvious instances of foul play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lardy

I think everyone knows that. The discussion is about what constitutes a foul.

---

That’s not what the discussion is about. It’s about eradicating shirt pulling all over the pitch, and wrestling in the box.

I respect everyone's opinion and this is a good thread, but what i will say is that just enforcing the laws of the game is like saying that the government should put more people in prison for committing crime as it's a deterrent, and if there's a deterrent, people will stop committing crime. They wont and they don't, they just find other ways od doing it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

I respect everyone's opinion and this is a good thread, but what i will say is that just enforcing the laws of the game is like saying that the government should put more people in prison for committing crime as it's a deterrent, and if there's a deterrent, people will stop committing crime. They wont and they don't, they just find other ways od doing it.

---

Indeed.

Another factor is that so much football is televised now. Therefore, fans seem to believe that because they can see a foul of some description on the second or third close-up replay, the referee should have seen it in real time from wherever he or she was on the pitch.

I know I’ve said so before on numerous occasions, but the constant criticism of referees these days just does my nut in. People expect miracles and I think it’s ridiculous. The simple fact is that players cheat on a very regular basis. That’s true for almost all of them, whether it be exaggerating contact, feigning injury, wrestling at set-pieces, pulling shirts, etc. They’re all at it almost all of the time.