COVID - Something has to change

[WJ99mobile]

Boris and his government can't win whatever they do. It's been a mess-up from the start, but that's exactly because they have tried to keep everyone happy. Sadly, that doesn't work, but if they had instead go one way or the other (total and complete lockdown OR just ride it out) they would have been hammered.

The thing is, not making that definite decision, and instead, bumbling along jumping from one tack to another, has made things worse. If we'd had total lockdown, we might have been out of it by now, but we'd have no business, no food, and no jobs. Riding it out would have meant normal life, but a lot more deaths. The government chose to carry out a mixture of the two, but that doesn't really work either. But, in reality, EVERYONE, of ANY PARTY, would have done exactly the same thing. They would have opted for the path that causes the least damage to both health and economy.

So what to do? Who knows? The damage is done now, so it looks like a case of occasional lockdowns, while science searches for a vaccine.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

First we thought the virus was more deadly it probably is so lockdown was right, then we thought that opening up the country in segments would keep the virus in circulation, with a vaccine on it's way.

Now it looks like there's no vaccine and no prospect of herd immunity soon due to reinfections within 3 months.

The Government has a choice with no right answer. Lives now or lives in the future.

[blue matt]

Boris and his government can't win whatever they do. It's been a mess-up from the start, but that's exactly because they have tried to keep everyone happy. Sadly, that doesn't work, but if they had instead go one way or the other (total and complete lockdown OR just ride it out) they would have been hammered.

But it was always going to be a mess, the world was / still is learning about this virus, different countries are going about it different ways so as you said, who do we follow

[Vindec]

But it was always going to be a mess, the world was / still is learning about this virus, different countries are going about it different ways so as you said, who do we follow

Spot on. Countries are experiencing different rates of infection and everyone is struggling to identify a way forward. Some are saying we are doing worse than others but I'm unsure whether that is totally relevant. Even in the UK rates of infection differ. Indeed 50% of Wales is in lockdown which is the equivalent of 28000 in England. Wales seem to have it worse but I wouldn't necessarily say this is the fault of anyone and you can't blame test and trace because only 11% of those asked to isolate comply. No country has the solution other than complete lockdown and that has an adverse affect on the economy. We have no option other than to let matters run their course, lockdowning when asked to do so and simply comply with actions we are required to take.

[jon1959]

Boris and his government can't win whatever they do. It's been a mess-up from the start, but that's exactly because they have tried to keep everyone happy. Sadly, that doesn't work, but if they had instead go one way or the other (total and complete lockdown OR just ride it out) they would have been hammered.

The thing is, not making that definite decision, and instead, bumbling along jumping from one tack to another, has made things worse. If we'd had total lockdown, we might have been out of it by now, but we'd have no business, no food, and no jobs. Riding it out would have meant normal life, but a lot more deaths. The government chose to carry out a mixture of the two, but that doesn't really work either. But, in reality, EVERYONE, of ANY PARTY, would have done exactly the same thing. They would have opted for the path that causes the least damage to both health and economy.

So what to do? Who knows? The damage is done now, so it looks like a case of occasional lockdowns, while science searches for a vaccine.

No government could find a course through Covid that kept everyone happy if that's what you mean by 'can't win', but this government and Prime Minister has been an international outlier in its' ineptitude and incoherence.

The 'jumping from one tack to another' was not part of a calculated balancing act between health and economic concerns - but the result of confusion, lack of leadership and strategy, and making up policy off the cuff on a daily basis. The contradictory and confusing messages to the public - on some days we had three or more Cabinet ministers saying totally different things - together with symbolic disasters like the Cummings road trip - were totally avoidable.

Any conceivable alternative government (Labour or even one led by Theresa May) would have had a very hard job on their hands, but they would be unlikely to cock it up as badly at this lot!

[Optimistic Nick]

No government could find a course through Covid that kept everyone happy if that's what you mean by 'can't win', but this government and Prime Minister has been an international outlier in its' ineptitude and incoherence.

The 'jumping from one tack to another' was not part of a calculated balancing act between health and economic concerns - but the result of confusion, lack of leadership and strategy, and making up policy off the cuff on a daily basis. The contradictory and confusing messages to the public - on some days we had three or more Cabinet ministers saying totally different things - together with symbolic disasters like the Cummings road trip - were totally avoidable.

Any conceivable alternative government (Labour or even one led by Theresa May) would have had a very hard job on their hands, but they would be unlikely to cock it up as badly at this lot!

This is where I am at with it. I dislike BoJo enormously, I think he is a dangerous moron. But at the start of this I did think he was being put in an impossible position and you have to accept that the response would be something of a gamble. There would be mistakes, same as everywhere else. I also liked the fact that he so visibly deferred to grown-ups and scientists early on. So I do think you can excuse even quite abrupt changes in high level approach e.g. binning herd immunity.

Realistically his job was not to determine policy, which sounds odd but really it is appropriate. His job was to manage the clear and unambiguous communication and implementation of that policy and competently put the infrastructure in place to execute it.

And this is where he has failed on a monumental scale. Even with the circumstances he finds himself working in, he's performed to an unacceptable level. His performance has been truly negligent, to the point where I do hope it is tested in the courts once we do get a vaccine and are in recovery. Charging about shaking hands in hospitals, failure to recognise the importance of this and then getting the virus itself is the behaviour of a drunken chucklebrother, not a leader. His defense of Cummings fatally crippled any spirit of togetherness and I am sure contributed in a material way to non-observance of guidelines in place. We then have the absolute farce of track and trace. But the other biggie is the patchwork of rules and guidelines. I think you have to expect that there will be oddities and it is always going to be easy to poke holes in any broad brush approaches, and that is OK as far as I'm concerned. It does look odd that kids can go to school in classes of 30 but can't play outside in groups of 7, but you can see what both rules are getting at so you have to let it go really - I am sure most countries have these anomalies. But the general messaging has been an absolute shambles from the very beginning of this, when government clearly hadn't made up their minds on really fundamental things like what happens to the construction industry. Their inability to use the time bought by the first "lockdown" (if that is what we will pretend it was) to implement track n trace and sort out the messaging/rulebook is simply negligent.

[the other bob wilson]

This is where I am at with it. I dislike BoJo enormously, I think he is a dangerous moron. But at the start of this I did think he was being put in an impossible position and you have to accept that the response would be something of a gamble. There would be mistakes, same as everywhere else. I also liked the fact that he so visibly deferred to grown-ups and scientists early on. So I do think you can excuse even quite abrupt changes in high level approach e.g. binning herd immunity.

Realistically his job was not to determine policy, which sounds odd but really it is appropriate. His job was to manage the clear and unambiguous communication and implementation of that policy and competently put the infrastructure in place to execute it.

And this is where he has failed on a monumental scale. Even with the circumstances he finds himself working in, he's performed to an unacceptable level. His performance has been truly negligent, to the point where I do hope it is tested in the courts once we do get a vaccine and are in recovery. Charging about shaking hands in hospitals, failure to recognise the importance of this and then getting the virus itself is the behaviour of a drunken chucklebrother, not a leader. His defense of Cummings fatally crippled any spirit of togetherness and I am sure contributed in a material way to non-observance of guidelines in place. We then have the absolute farce of track and trace. But the other biggie is the patchwork of rules and guidelines. I think you have to expect that there will be oddities and it is always going to be easy to poke holes in any broad brush approaches, and that is OK as far as I'm concerned. It does look odd that kids can go to school in classes of 30 but can't play outside in groups of 7, but you can see what both rules are getting at so you have to let it go really - I am sure most countries have these anomalies. But the general messaging has been an absolute shambles from the very beginning of this, when government clearly hadn't made up their minds on really fundamental things like what happens to the construction industry. Their inability to use the time bought by the first "lockdown" (if that is what we will pretend it was) to implement track n trace and sort out the messaging/rulebook is simply negligent.

I think you've been pretty fair there - good post .

[Vindec]

It's a good article but putting so much faith in test and trace doesn't seem to be working. Yes the UK is a shambles in that regard but when only 11% of those contacted by test and trace workers comply with the isolation requirements you have to wonder whether reliance on the arrangements is over played.

[Vindec]

It's a good article but putting so much faith in test and trace doesn't seem to be working. Yes the UK is a shambles in that regard but when only 11% of those contacted by test and trace workers comply with the isolation requirements you have to wonder whether reliance on the arrangements is over played.

This link was omitted from my previous post:

https://www.ft.com/content/d214ef31-...f-17c7057ab999

Briefly the article said this:


https://www.ft.com/content/d214ef31-...f-17c7057ab999

Only 11 per cent of people in the UK in contact with someone who has tested positive for Covid-19 are quarantining, and just 18 per cent of those who develop symptoms are self-isolating, according to new research from King’s College London.

The study, which paints the first clear picture of how many people are following the government’s virus guidelines, was published as daily infection cases in the UK reached a record 6,634.

[xsnaggle]

I think it is die-hard labour supporters, momentum probably, who are going out intent on catching the disease and then deliberately not self isolating and deliberately not self quarantining just to make the Government's strategy seem wrong.

You have to admire their loyalty, so selflessly risking themselves for the cause!

[Vindec]

I think it is die-hard labour supporters, momentum probably, who are going out intent on catching the disease and then deliberately not self isolating and deliberately not self quarantining just to make the Government's strategy seem wrong.

You have to admire their loyalty, so selflessly risking themselves for the cause!

Although the above post is a wind up several on here are following the advice of the shadow Education Secretary by not letting a good crisis get in the way of politics. Strange isn't it there has been no mention of that on here previously or indeed those who were saying the pandemic was better managed in Wales when it seems clear it is now far worse since 50% of Wales is now in lockdown. I don't think that is necessarily relevant but that is the comparison people have made.

[goats]

Although the above post is a wind up several on here are following the advice of the shadow Education Secretary by not letting a good crisis get in the way of politics. Strange isn't it there has been no mention of that on here previously or indeed those who were saying the pandemic was better managed in Wales when it seems clear it is now far worse since 50% of Wales is now in lockdown. I don't think that is necessarily relevant but that is the comparison people have made.

We doNt need to be in lockdown though, it’s BS. It’s pointless. All it does is stop sharron from ponty coming shopping to cardiff for the day or Sheila from treeharris. Anyone working back and fore accros the county line is still doing it anyway. Can’t see what difference staying within the county makes? 38 people per 100k.

[Vindec]

We doNt need to be in lockdown though, it’s BS. It’s pointless. All it does is stop sharron from ponty coming shopping to cardiff for the day or Sheila from treeharris. Anyone working back and fore accros the county line is still doing it anyway. Can’t see what difference staying within the county makes? 38 people per 100k.

Perhaps there should be more criticism of your political masters in Cardiff Bay for the decisions they have made. At the moment the criticisms seem very one sided.

[goats]

Perhaps there should be more criticism of your political masters in Cardiff Bay for the decisions they have made. At the moment the criticisms seem very one sided.

Even the most “normal” stick by the rules types are now starting to wonder wtf is going on.
Apparently 70% of tests were positive back in April, now it’s 4% despite far more testing....make of that what you will.

[Hilts]

The failure to sack Cummings was such a key moment. Johnson should have condemned what he had done and hammered home the importance of sticking by the rules.

What we had was a bunch of incompetents squirming and sticking up for him.

History wont be kind to this lot and that will be a key moment in this crisis.

[Hilts]

I think it is die-hard labour supporters, momentum probably, who are going out intent on catching the disease and then deliberately not self isolating and deliberately not self quarantining just to make the Government's strategy seem wrong.

You have to admire their loyalty, so selflessly risking themselves for the cause!

What strategy?

[Hilts]

I wouldn't and I assume most under 55 would be the same

I think you assume wrong.

[Hilts]

Although the above post is a wind up several on here are following the advice of the shadow Education Secretary by not letting a good crisis get in the way of politics. Strange isn't it there has been no mention of that on here previously or indeed those who were saying the pandemic was better managed in Wales when it seems clear it is now far worse since 50% of Wales is now in lockdown. I don't think that is necessarily relevant but that is the comparison people have made.

I thought he was being serious.😂

[Dorcus]

The thoughts of a Havard professor of the evolution and epidemiology of infectious disease. There's no way I would consider myself as knowing more about the virus than him;-

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...st-trace-virus

You know what Mikey Gove said Bob, "who needs experts?". I'm sure a lot of our Brexity/Tory friends on here will surely agree.