The Von-Layen Tamer

[NYCBlue]

Doesn’t matter what you or I or any else thinks now we are out of Europe, so we have to make the best of it, nothing we can do.

There's lots you can do. You can make your voice heard. Become informed. Inform others.

[life on mars]

I thought Brexit was one of the main issues in the 2019 General Election when the Tories won by a landslide.

Yep so one could argue the passion for that Brexit was still alive and kicking country some 3 years after the 2016 vote, removing the remain arguments that they didn't know what they were voting for.

On a personal level I know 30 people or so who voted leave, not one f them changed their minds through the last 4 years, in fact it hardened.

[life on mars]

Never mind it can all he defeated and reversed by Labour , SNP , Liberal,Greens , Plaid and ERG forming an effective opposition defeat in the up and coming vote on the deal.

Then Labour win the next election and take up the offer of termination within the Break Clause in 2025 campaign to re join if as some suggest the Brexit result would now be reversed . ?????

Simples .

[xsnaggle]

You could look throughout all of history and see how a Tory government has treated wales.

Even if you voted for brexit this shambles can’t be what anyone voted for.

We’ve had a whole year to sign trade deals and we haven’t managed to sign anything more than what we already had plus we’ve signed a much worse one with our biggest trading partner.

I know this is controversial on here but people were tricked into voting for brexit by people promising things who weren’t even in a position to deliver it who promptly ****ed off as soon as the vote was done.

People were duped and the country is already significantly weaker for it.

Jobs have already been lost, companies have already left the country, students have lost the Erasmus. There have been 0 positives beyond meaningless catch phrases.

But the labour party in government has treated them no better. They take the welsh votes as if they own them by right and do nothing. None of them are much different. That said you cannot know what the present government will be like until the either do or fail to do something.

As for people being 'tricked' and 'duped', they have had 3 years or more of people like you telling them, screaming it from the rooftops and demanding a new vote and they still voted for it in Dec 19. Maybe they aren't as stupid as you think they are. You only think they are because you disagree with them. If the vote in favour of "getting it done" in December was reflected in the original referendum vote the remainers, myself included, would have been crushed.

[Veg1960]

But the labour party in government has treated them no better. They take the welsh votes as if they own them by right and do nothing. None of them are much different. That said you cannot know what the present government will be like until the either do or fail to do something.

As for people being 'tricked' and 'duped', they have had 3 years or more of people like you telling them, screaming it from the rooftops and demanding a new vote and they still voted for it in Dec 19. Maybe they aren't as stupid as you think they are. You only think they are because you disagree with them. If the vote in favour of "getting it done" in December was reflected in the original referendum vote the remainers, myself included, would have been crushed.

I don't think that is quite right. In terms of net votes, more people voted for pro remain parties than pro leave.

[xsnaggle]

Why do you keep saying it only happened yesterday? It happened a year ago and we’ve not done anything we couldn’t have done within the eu and now have a worse trade deal with our biggest trading partner and a load of companies have moved their headquarters to Europe.

As someone who grew up in the Valleys they’ve been ignored and mistreated for years but were getting eu funding. Do you think that governments will stop ignoring them now they’re not getting that funding?

It did only happen on thursday. Until then we were in transition and still operating under full EU rules. you can stamp your foot as much as you like but that is true. I am plea though that you said governments in the plural. They have been mistreated by all governments for generations. not just tory ones. It just so happens we've had more of those than Labour ones because they are who people voted for. And in anticipation of you saying the welsh didn't vote for them, well now that they have lets see what this westminster government does to keep those votes blue instead of red. We may be pleasantly surprised.

[Vindec]

With respect I'm not. I'm making a judgement as a self-employed sound engineer who has done probably a third of my work in Europe over the years. I also run an events company with my wife, and we do one or two shows a year show on the continent, typically a conference for a pan European workforce/

The deal may look neutral to you, but from where I'm standing it looks like a giant steaming turd

Where did I say the deal was neutral. I'm neutral on Brexit and am prepared to give it a chance. The issue is that people were using you as an example to prove that Brexit will fail. I take a different view but only time will tell whether Brexit will be a success or failure.

Where I agree with you is that the deal looks very bad from your viewpoint but your experience should not be used to prove that Brexit will fail for everyone.

[xsnaggle]

I don't think that is quite right. In terms of net votes, more people voted for pro remain parties than pro leave.

Maybe across the whole of UK, my point, perhaps not well put, was if the referendum had had the same overall majority as the government has.
I don't want to get into the FPP argument, which is always trotted out by the party that loses.

[Veg1960]

Maybe across the whole of UK, my point, perhaps not well put, was if the referendum had had the same overall majority as the government has.
I don't want to get into the FPP argument, which is always trotted out by the party that loses.

The referendum wasn't carried out in a first past the post basis though was it? The referendum was carried out on a simple majority. A simple majority of people at the last election didn't vote for pro brexit parties, the point you are trying to make doesn't make any sense.

I think it would be as close now as ever it was. People really don't want to change their minds on stuff like this - even when presented with a shit sandwich

[xsnaggle]

The referendum wasn't carried out in a first past the post basis though was it? The referendum was carried out on a simple majority. A simple majority of people at the last election didn't vote for pro brexit parties, the point you are trying to make doesn't make any sense.

I think it would be as close now as ever it was. People really don't want to change their minds on stuff like this - even when presented with a shit sandwich

Whatever. It's done. now we have to make it work.

[jeepster]

The referendum wasn't carried out in a first past the post basis though was it? The referendum was carried out on a simple majority. A simple majority of people at the last election didn't vote for pro brexit parties, the point you are trying to make doesn't make any sense.

I think it would be as close now as ever it was. People really don't want to change their minds on stuff like this - even when presented with a shit sandwich

Made me laugh

[delmbox]

Yep so one could argue the passion for that Brexit was still alive and kicking country some 3 years after the 2016 vote, removing the remain arguments that they didn't know what they were voting for.

On a personal level I know 30 people or so who voted leave, not one f them changed their minds through the last 4 years, in fact it hardened.

Name them

[Veg1960]

Made me laugh

If only it was funny!

[Eric Cartman]

Yep so one could argue the passion for that Brexit was still alive and kicking country some 3 years after the 2016 vote, removing the remain arguments that they didn't know what they were voting for.

On a personal level I know 30 people or so who voted leave, not one f them changed their minds through the last 4 years, in fact it hardened.

I can well believe that their minds are very hard indeed.

[xsnaggle]

Name them

sleepy, dock dave dozy beaky dancer prancer vixen donner. Should I go on?

[Elwood Blues]

hilts agree a buffoon the worse PM in my lifetime but didn't its own party vote him in after Mays attempt failed in the brexit talks ?

don't think the public had a say

They did . In December 2019

[Elwood Blues]

sleepy, dock dave dozy beaky dancer prancer vixen donner. Should I go on?

You missed out Mick and Tich

And it's Dave Dee

And don't forget Dasher,Blitzen,Cupid and Rudolph

And then there's Uncle Tom Cobley and all.

Think the all covers it really!

[Croesy Blue]

But the labour party in government has treated them no better. They take the welsh votes as if they own them by right and do nothing. None of them are much different. That said you cannot know what the present government will be like until the either do or fail to do something.

As for people being 'tricked' and 'duped', they have had 3 years or more of people like you telling them, screaming it from the rooftops and demanding a new vote and they still voted for it in Dec 19. Maybe they aren't as stupid as you think they are. You only think they are because you disagree with them. If the vote in favour of "getting it done" in December was reflected in the original referendum vote the remainers, myself included, would have been crushed.

I don’t know what Labour have got to do with it it’s why I said successive governments. They’ve all been terrible for wales, wales were lucky to have had the eu funding.

I don’t discuss anything or scream anything with brexiteers because as this thread is shown they didn’t even know what they wanted and now are delighted with the shit we’ve ended up with. There is no logic to it, they were duped into voting for it and won’t change their mind what ever happens.

What the **** does getting it done even mean?! We’ve just ended up with being in a very similar position but with a worse trade deal with the people we do the majority of our trading with

As soon as I hear “getting it done”, “sovereignty” and “brexit means brexit” I know there’s no point continuing the discussion because that person had shown they don’t really know what they voted for.

[Croesy Blue]

People won’t ever admit it but what we voted on wasn’t defined enough. There’s no way anyone with a brain would have voted for what we’ve ended up with.

I suppose unless they hate foreigners enough to **** the economy for it.

I can’t believe people are happy with the last 5 years, 100s of companies have left the U.K. we’ve lost jobs and about £15billion a year from the economy. And now we are being told to wait and see how it’ll affect us

We’ve had a year to make deals and haven’t managed to negotiate one better than what we previously had.

[Croesy Blue]

One more question what laws are people looking forward to that we couldn’t make before?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Capital Economics are about at the top of the game when it comes to forecasting on issues such at the one being debated on this thread

It looks like its going to be a piss show

Those with money will always be OK

But those areas that had eu funding ?

Turn off the lights

I didn't vote to leave , those that did and don't have a bit tucked away will see the results of their actions before long

A festering boil on the arse of the tory party was stroked by farage and Cameron shat his pants

Giving this country a referendum to leave a huge single market then piss about for 4 years kissing arse to have some sort of kiss and make up is just the start

Welcome to hell

Abandon hope all who enter here

[Des Parrot]

We’ve just ended up with being in a very similar position but with a worse trade deal with the people we do the majority of our trading with

Where are the benefits coming from, who is going to benefit? This isn't "leave", it's just moving out of the mansion to live in the shed

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Easy answer to your question Eric, is vote to scrap WP. Let's be run from Westminster, whoever is in Govt.

I'll agree to that on these conditions.

Wales, Scotland and Northern Irish MPs have equal say on all matters. When it comes to a vote, each country's MPs combined will have 25% share.

If Welsh MPs want to do something in Wales that England might not like, as long as there's a majority within Welsh MPs for it, their bill is passed in Wales.

Happy? Thought not.

The flooding of Trederwen was agreed in Westminster but all Welsh MPs voted against it. Was that a good deal for Wales? Of course not. Any time there is potential conflict in the house between Wales and England, England will win every time. Are you happy with that? I'm not. Not at all.

In a referendum, as long as 59% of England votes one way, it can override the other countries voting 100% the other way. Is that a good deal for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland? Of course it isn't.

Because England is a far bigger country in terms of population than the rest, it is able to dictate to the others what happens. I don't agree with that. I would hope that all proper Welshmen would be against such things as well.

[Allez Allez Allez]

Whatever. It's done. now we have to make it work.

No, now the Government has to make it work. All we do is what we always do - go to work, pay the bills. I'm not going to work any harder for some theoretical notion that people make things work.

[Allez Allez Allez]

As soon as I hear “getting it done”, “sovereignty” and “brexit means brexit” I know there’s no point continuing the discussion because that person had shown they don’t really know what they voted for.

Three. Word. SLOGANS.

People are too busy talking about rubbish ballroom dancers and even rubbisher singers on X Factor to concentrate or digest anything longer.

BREXIT MEANS BREXIT
WIN BACK CONTROL
CONTROL OUR BORDERS
GET IT DONE