The Von-Layen Tamer

[NYCBlue]

Re: The Von-Layen Tamer

Doesn’t matter what you or I or any else thinks now we are out of Europe, so we have to make the best of it, nothing we can do.

There's lots you can do. You can make your voice heard. Become informed. Inform others.

[life on mars]

Re: The Von-Layen Tamer

I thought Brexit was one of the main issues in the 2019 General Election when the Tories won by a landslide.

Yep so one could argue the passion for that Brexit was still alive and kicking country some 3 years after the 2016 vote, removing the remain arguments that they didn't know what they were voting for.

On a personal level I know 30 people or so who voted leave, not one f them changed their minds through the last 4 years, in fact it hardened.

[life on mars]

Re: The Von-Layen Tamer

Never mind it can all he defeated and reversed by Labour , SNP , Liberal,Greens , Plaid and ERG forming an effective opposition defeat in the up and coming vote on the deal.

Then Labour win the next election and take up the offer of termination within the Break Clause in 2025 campaign to re join if as some suggest the Brexit result would now be reversed . ?????

Simples .

[xsnaggle]

Re: The Von-Layen Tamer

You could look throughout all of history and see how a Tory government has treated wales.

Even if you voted for brexit this shambles can’t be what anyone voted for.

We’ve had a whole year to sign trade deals and we haven’t managed to sign anything more than what we already had plus we’ve signed a much worse one with our biggest trading partner.

I know this is controversial on here but people were tricked into voting for brexit by people promising things who weren’t even in a position to deliver it who promptly ****ed off as soon as the vote was done.

People were duped and the country is already significantly weaker for it.

Jobs have already been lost, companies have already left the country, students have lost the Erasmus. There have been 0 positives beyond meaningless catch phrases.

But the labour party in government has treated them no better. They take the welsh votes as if they own them by right and do nothing. None of them are much different. That said you cannot know what the present government will be like until the either do or fail to do something.

As for people being 'tricked' and 'duped', they have had 3 years or more of people like you telling them, screaming it from the rooftops and demanding a new vote and they still voted for it in Dec 19. Maybe they aren't as stupid as you think they are. You only think they are because you disagree with them. If the vote in favour of "getting it done" in December was reflected in the original referendum vote the remainers, myself included, would have been crushed.

[Veg1960]

Re: The Von-Layen Tamer

But the labour party in government has treated them no better. They take the welsh votes as if they own them by right and do nothing. None of them are much different. That said you cannot know what the present government will be like until the either do or fail to do something.

As for people being 'tricked' and 'duped', they have had 3 years or more of people like you telling them, screaming it from the rooftops and demanding a new vote and they still voted for it in Dec 19. Maybe they aren't as stupid as you think they are. You only think they are because you disagree with them. If the vote in favour of "getting it done" in December was reflected in the original referendum vote the remainers, myself included, would have been crushed.

I don't think that is quite right. In terms of net votes, more people voted for pro remain parties than pro leave.

[xsnaggle]

Re: The Von-Layen Tamer

Why do you keep saying it only happened yesterday? It happened a year ago and we’ve not done anything we couldn’t have done within the eu and now have a worse trade deal with our biggest trading partner and a load of companies have moved their headquarters to Europe.

As someone who grew up in the Valleys they’ve been ignored and mistreated for years but were getting eu funding. Do you think that governments will stop ignoring them now they’re not getting that funding?

It did only happen on thursday. Until then we were in transition and still operating under full EU rules. you can stamp your foot as much as you like but that is true. I am plea though that you said governments in the plural. They have been mistreated by all governments for generations. not just tory ones. It just so happens we've had more of those than Labour ones because they are who people voted for. And in anticipation of you saying the welsh didn't vote for them, well now that they have lets see what this westminster government does to keep those votes blue instead of red. We may be pleasantly surprised.

[Vindec]

Re: The Von-Layen Tamer

With respect I'm not. I'm making a judgement as a self-employed sound engineer who has done probably a third of my work in Europe over the years. I also run an events company with my wife, and we do one or two shows a year show on the continent, typically a conference for a pan European workforce/

The deal may look neutral to you, but from where I'm standing it looks like a giant steaming turd

Where did I say the deal was neutral. I'm neutral on Brexit and am prepared to give it a chance. The issue is that people were using you as an example to prove that Brexit will fail. I take a different view but only time will tell whether Brexit will be a success or failure.

Where I agree with you is that the deal looks very bad from your viewpoint but your experience should not be used to prove that Brexit will fail for everyone.

[xsnaggle]

Re: The Von-Layen Tamer

I don't think that is quite right. In terms of net votes, more people voted for pro remain parties than pro leave.

Maybe across the whole of UK, my point, perhaps not well put, was if the referendum had had the same overall majority as the government has.
I don't want to get into the FPP argument, which is always trotted out by the party that loses.

[Veg1960]

Re: The Von-Layen Tamer

Maybe across the whole of UK, my point, perhaps not well put, was if the referendum had had the same overall majority as the government has.
I don't want to get into the FPP argument, which is always trotted out by the party that loses.

The referendum wasn't carried out in a first past the post basis though was it? The referendum was carried out on a simple majority. A simple majority of people at the last election didn't vote for pro brexit parties, the point you are trying to make doesn't make any sense.

I think it would be as close now as ever it was. People really don't want to change their minds on stuff like this - even when presented with a shit sandwich

[xsnaggle]

Re: The Von-Layen Tamer

The referendum wasn't carried out in a first past the post basis though was it? The referendum was carried out on a simple majority. A simple majority of people at the last election didn't vote for pro brexit parties, the point you are trying to make doesn't make any sense.

I think it would be as close now as ever it was. People really don't want to change their minds on stuff like this - even when presented with a shit sandwich

Whatever. It's done. now we have to make it work.

[jeepster]

Re: The Von-Layen Tamer

The referendum wasn't carried out in a first past the post basis though was it? The referendum was carried out on a simple majority. A simple majority of people at the last election didn't vote for pro brexit parties, the point you are trying to make doesn't make any sense.

I think it would be as close now as ever it was. People really don't want to change their minds on stuff like this - even when presented with a shit sandwich

Made me laugh:xmasthumbup:

[delmbox]

Re: The Von-Layen Tamer

Yep so one could argue the passion for that Brexit was still alive and kicking country some 3 years after the 2016 vote, removing the remain arguments that they didn't know what they were voting for.

On a personal level I know 30 people or so who voted leave, not one f them changed their minds through the last 4 years, in fact it hardened.

Name them

[Veg1960]

Re: The Von-Layen Tamer

Made me laugh:xmasthumbup:

If only it was funny!:xmasayatollah:

[Eric Cartman]

Re: The Von-Layen Tamer

Yep so one could argue the passion for that Brexit was still alive and kicking country some 3 years after the 2016 vote, removing the remain arguments that they didn't know what they were voting for.

On a personal level I know 30 people or so who voted leave, not one f them changed their minds through the last 4 years, in fact it hardened.

I can well believe that their minds are very hard indeed.

[xsnaggle]

Re: The Von-Layen Tamer

Name them

sleepy, dock dave dozy beaky dancer prancer vixen donner. Should I go on? :xmashehe: