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Thread: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

  1. #41

    Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

    Quote Originally Posted by WJ99mobile View Post
    Labour are finished until they decide who they are.

    It’s like 2 separate parties in one with conflicting policies, conflicting people and a conflicting vision.

    I’d love to vote Labour but for every one thing I agree with there’s two that I don’t.
    There has always been that struggle between left and right. It went quiet in Blair’s early years but Iraq changed all that and for the past 20 years the party has been a complete shambles. I’m a member at the moment but getting seriously passed off with Starmer’s lack of ooomph. He seems to be scared of his own shadow.

    Labour are far too soft. They need to be far nastier. Just like the Tories are.

  2. #42

    Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

    Is there any point continuing with the politics board given that this thread has grown to this size?

    This thread goes to the heart of why the Labour party is unsuccessful electorally. Although the Conservative party is becoming more factionalised with "research groups" of stroppy ultra right wingers, they tend to fall into line when there's an important vote or an election to be won - the Conservative's are not called the most efficient election fighting body in history for nothing, they'll do anything to stay in power (for example, a furlough scheme which was socialist in principle) because the lesson that you can do nothing unless you're in power has been learned by them.

    On the other hand, Labour nearly always are fighting an "enemy within" and, as I've mentioned before on here, to a large degree, they look inside their party for the people or bodies they are opposed to, not the party they should be concentrating their fire on. Look at Jeremy Corbyn - how many times did he vote against his party when they were in Government?

  3. #43

    Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

    Thatcher started the swerve towards the right in this country . And I am afraid its not stopped .

    Major was a decent enough bloke , apart from some sideways boffing but Blair , after a few good years , went potty and lurched to the tory lite figure he really was . And of course his invasion of Iraq was a criminal disgrace .

    Brown was a decent man but lost the plot .

    Cameron was thatchers love child and alongside that we had Ed milligan who again was a nice bloke but totally incompetent as a leader and crucified by the right wing press .

    Corbyn had some good ideas but too much baggage easily rooted out by the media and surround yourself by the likes of Abbott and you are doomed .

    Brexit for me showed that there was a significant xenophobic switch in this country and many were still filled with this rule brittania nonsense , fuelled by the euro sceptic tory party .

    Sadly the days of sticking together through the hard times have gone . Workers rights have gone out of the window , since Thatcher came along everything not nailed down has been sold and the marketplace is king . Its survival of the fittest . It wasn't always like that but its now down to voluntary sector things like food banks to help those in need .

    People in their millions voted for the conservatives who have dismantled the welfare state . Following this dreadful virus those same millions are having to turn towards universal credit and sickness benefits . They have had a massive shock and the reality of what they have voted for is hitting home . Hopefully those people will think again next time.

    My father and grandfather were socialists but the reality in 2021 is that those of us that don't vote tory need a party that has democratic left of centre values but is actually going to form a government and implement those policies that we want .

    I don't think that's going to happen unless a sort of left of centre alliance is formed . The numbers do just not add up . The majority of the country do not vote tory . But enough of the country does to enable them to form a government .

    From scraping through to form a coalition with the liberals under Cameron to Theresa may sucking up to the ulster unionists we now have a situation where Boris and his front bench , who are libertarian , right wing and totally incompetent, have a 80 seat majority

    Anyone who thinks the soppy and ineffective starmer has any chance of overturning that needs to see a doctor.

    But I don't think its about leadership . Lisa Nandy was my choice but whoever took over the baton was heading a party that in my opinion , like the liberals , is finished . Corbyn , Brexit, the selfish modern society we live in means for me those that don't vote tory need a fresh start .

    It might take a few years but a left of centre democratic party involving the best brains from the Labour, Liberal and Conservative Party ........Ken Clarke, Sarah Wollaston types and the minority parties is the only way to go

    I would love to see the renationalisation of water , gas , the railways , electricity , I would love to see care workers not employed on poor wages by private companies but on contracted hours , given decent pensions and working directly for the local social services department . I would love to see cleaners employed by the NHS , not private businesses .

    But that isn't going to happen . Improvements MAY be made if a left of centre democratic alliance is formed . Until that does happen I will vote Labour or whatever party locally has the best chance of keeping the tories out . But until then unless we accept the Labour and Liberal parties are finished and we need to join up we are forever going to be arguing from the sidelines .

  4. #44
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    Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

    'Cameron was thatchers love child and alongside that we had Ed milligan who again was a nice bloke but totally incompetent as a leader and crucified by the right wing press'

    Sludge, I hope you aren't one of those people who think Ed's brother Spike would have been a better leader?

  5. #45

    Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

    Quote Originally Posted by neilw65 View Post
    I think a lot of what has been said by both Sludge and former labour leader is correct. However I would also suggest that the way some councils, and WAG itself, run things is poor.

    If you look at Caerphilly council as an example, they have been shocking.

    Closing leisure centres against the wishes of the people.
    Going to court to fight against the wishes of the people.
    Building new homes everywhere.
    Former leader breaching code of conduct by not declaring interest in major investments.
    The former CEO pay scandal.

    Then there is the Islwyn candidate travelling to Swindon to see her boyfriend during lockdown, whilst possibly not breaking the law, it certainly breaks the spirit of the lockdown rules and undermines the WAG message.

    Oh and a couple of years ago was found guilty of Drink Driving.

    None of this helps labours cause and was some of the major talking points on the doorsteps during 2019 election campaign
    Shocking leadership in Caerphilly. My parents live in the county and also I used to work there

    This is why people don't trust labour anymore and looking for alternatives.

    Labour have become complacent and a 'jobs for the boys' club in many welsh counties because they have been there for so long.

    It's disgusting.

    For me Adam Price is one of the most ethical and visionary leaders in Wales and I hope that people recognise Plaid as the only alternative to Labour.

  6. #46

    Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    'Cameron was thatchers love child and alongside that we had Ed milligan who again was a nice bloke but totally incompetent as a leader and crucified by the right wing press'

    Sludge, I hope you aren't one of those people who think Ed's brother Spike would have been a better leader?
    Christ no , he was right behind Blair regarding Iraq

    I thought Andy Burnham would have made a good leader

    And David Lammy

  7. #47

    Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

    I feel sorry for Starmer. He's intelligent, conscientious and qualified but not particularly television friendly, which these days seems to mean an entertaining but incompetent, lying crook. We like the drama more than anything, and any talk of having a "leader" is waffle, seeing as the only definition of that seems to be posh, rich and forthright.

    If we'd voted for Milliband, who didn't get in cos he was seen as weird (so there's an exception to drama rule - you have to be mainstream drama) then he would've done as good a job as Cameron (not difficult) and we'd still be in the EU. It's all presentation, and it's pathetic.

  8. #48
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    Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Christ no , he was right behind Blair regarding Iraq

    I thought Andy Burnham would have made a good leader

    And David Lammy
    I can't decide whether I think Jon's post was a whoosh or not.

  9. #49
    International jon1959's Avatar
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    Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

    Quote Originally Posted by xsnaggle View Post
    I can't decide whether I think Jon's post was a whoosh or not.

  10. #50

    Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Christ no , he was right behind Blair regarding Iraq

    I thought Andy Burnham would have made a good leader

    And David Lammy
    David Lammy comes across as an arsehole

  11. #51

    Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

    The next general election is a long way away.

    Starmer needs to get nastier as the pandemic ends.

    Having this bunch of idiots voted in again woukd make the UK looks as bad as the US loons voting in Trump.

  12. #52

    Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

    Like Sludge, The Labour Party has Convinced itself that working class people are right wing and Nationalistic. It's part of the Narrative now Starmer is in charge.

  13. #53

    Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuerto View Post
    Like Sludge, The Labour Party has Convinced itself that working class people are right wing and Nationalistic. It's part of the Narrative now Starmer is in charge.
    Labour are filled with paternalistic "we know best types" who think the working classes are swayed by the allure of a union flag

  14. #54

    Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

    What Labour need to work out is why this happened :

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9249936.html

  15. #55

    Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    What Labour need to work out is why this happened :

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9249936.html
    Simple they do not represent the working class, have not for a long time.

  16. #56

    Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

    Quote Originally Posted by chris lee View Post
    Simple they do not represent the working class, have not for a long time.
    And the Conservatives do?

  17. #57

    Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    What Labour need to work out is why this happened :

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9249936.html
    Brexit and the full frontal assault from the media on their leader for 4 years most likely

  18. #58

    Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

    Quote Originally Posted by City123 View Post
    Labour are filled with paternalistic "we know best types" who think the working classes are swayed by the allure of a union flag
    Absolutely. Lisa Nandy is one of the worst. Every interview she does is an attack on the Tories for not being Hard enough on Russian interference and the supposed trade war with china, also ramping up the notion that China is spying on the UK. Saying that the Tories haven't been hard enough on Shamima Begum, talking about national security like it's an imminent threat and slagging of Corbyn for not joining in with National threats towards russia. She really is a shit bag, even her own father described her as right wing. This is the line Labour are taking, unfortunately. Purposely aimed at a certain section of people.

  19. #59

    Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

    Quote Originally Posted by City123 View Post
    And the Conservatives do?
    No they do not, but my theory ( all be it a poor one) is that at least people know what they are getting with the torries, where as Labour tend to come across as very sanctimonious and it does not sit well with people, it makes them very unlikeable, where as it is easier to accept a knob when they do not pretend to be anything but.

  20. #60

    Re: The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

    Quote Originally Posted by chris lee View Post
    No they do not, but my theory ( all be it a poor one) is that at least people know what they are getting with the torries, where as Labour tend to come across as very sanctimonious and it does not sit well with people, it makes them very unlikeable, where as it is easier to accept a knob when they do not pretend to be anything but.
    So many Conservatives seem to think they've got to diss the party they vote for - is it a way of making them feel better about themselves?

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